Beginner query

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by john_iron_fists, May 28, 2010.

  1. john_iron_fists

    john_iron_fists Valued Member

    Hi there,

    Finally attended my first Kickboxing class, really enjoyed it - but the club I am currently going to doesn't offer gradings as it's part of a commercial gym.

    Theres a local Goju Ryu class which has caught my eye and now I am tempted to switching as it might seem like a better option (longer classes - at the moment I only train for an hour, gradings, club membership etc)

    What would you guys do in this situation??


  2. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Difficult one this. What do you want out of your Martial journey?
    When I first started I was not bothered about belts (still not really) so I never took many gradings. Later in life I wanted to teach so an affiliation to a class and a blackbelt seemed more important.
    Now we are fortunate because although we do grade our students we are more interested in skill level than training for gradings alone and our students recognise this.
    So I suggest you establish what your goals are. If you really like the class you are in then stay and get a good grounding, if not and you really want to grade or compete, then make the change.
  3. john_iron_fists

    john_iron_fists Valued Member

    Thanks for the reply

    I would like to start grading and learn more of a self defence system rather than a sport.

    Its just that I do enjoy the intense workout of kickboxing and heard many good things about the art.

    I have also found that alot of people knock Karate and say it's not as effective as kickboxing - but thats a different subject altogether!
  4. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    Don't fall into the trap of accepting this dichotomy...

    here is a good article in relation to the sport/self defence argument...

    "A Tired Debate

    I see some of you still don't understand the distinction. The street vs sport, BJJ has rules, grappling should include biting, hair pulling, etc, is a straw man. It's a tired and meaningless debate. Its also the excuse that every master of DEAD martial arts from the traditional schools uses to explain his arts non effectiveness in a full contact environment. So anyone seeking to use this argument should be wary.

    Let me be as clear as possible. I will borrow some of Dan Inosanto's terminology here, and yes Mr Inosanto is a Black Belt with the Machados, whom I consider some of the best GRAPPLING coaches in the world. (Try biting Rigan sometime, I worked it with him once and it sucks!).

    You need to make a distinction between a "delivery system" and a sporting application of an art. As an example we will use a man I admire very much, Renzo Gracie. Renzo could see a bite, a foul tactic, a version of an armlock, from Silat, or White Crane, or Yellow Monkey Fever, etc etc, and probably be able to INTEGRATE and apply that move very quickly. Why? Because he already has such a strong base on the ground. He understands the positions, and he has a great delivery system. Compare that with say an Aikido stylist. He may see the same application for a bite, or a choke, etc, but never be able to effectively use it. Especially against a wrestler or another groundfighter. Why? Because he doesn't have that delivery system.

    Mo Smith could see a punch or a kick or an elbow, from just about any striking art and probably apply it very quickly to his game. Why? Because he has a STRONG BASE in the delivery system of western boxing. Boxing has the body mechanics, footwork, timing, etc, that allow Mo to INTEGRATE those moves.

    Randy Couture could see a sweep from say. . Judo, and probably use it right away. Why? Because he has a strong base in wrestling, and Greco. My main job at the SBG is to see that everyone that walks through the door develops that strong base in the delivery systems of stand up, clinch, and ground. Because they have a strong base in BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling, etc, DOES NOT therefore mean that they are "Sport Fighters". That's faulty logic and poor assumptions.In fact some SBG Instructors, including myself, spend a large percentage of time teaching law enforcement, and civilian self defense. Many drill daily using "foul tactics". It would be a HUGE mistake to assume that because they are very good at the delivery systems that they are not self defense orientated.

    Without a strong base on the ground, on your feet, and in the clinch, you can attend every "streetfighting" seminar in the world. Study every grappling art in existence, and still never be much of a fighter. That's the problem with the JKD Concepts paradigm. Does that mean all JKD Concepts people are like that? Of course not. Some have taken the time, and the pain That's involved in earning that strong base.

    I have people walk through my Gym door every week from out of town. They are here to take privates, and many aspire to be SBG Instructors. The first thing they do is roll on the mat, and most cannot hang with the white belts at my Gym, let alone the Blue or Purple belts. Then they box, and often they turn their back, reach out, fold under the pressure of being hit. It's just an environment they are not used to. They go away with a list of things to work on, a true knowledge of where their real skill level is, and hopefully a positive and productive experience. But, they do not go away with Instructors certificates.

    In a few cases I have looked online and seen that a Month or so later these same people have traveled to other JKD Instructors and become "certified" Instructors. I think That's fine. But That's not what the SBG is about. Even if someone says that the only goal they have is to teach beginners 'self-defense', they still must OWN a good BASE in stand up, Clinch, and Ground. That doesn't mean we are a SPORT Gym. It just means we have high standards.

    Once that BASE is acquired, then an athlete can go on to integrate other moves, or ideas very easily. They will be able to put those moves into CONTEXT because they have a strong base of skill. Without that base people become lost in a classical mess very easily. Led astray very easily, because they just don't understand. A purple belt in BJJ who knows how to bite and gouge eyes is a COMPLETELY different beast from a "streetfighter" who bites and gouges eyes but doesn't have the base in that 'delivery system'. If you want to be a good fighter, and reach your own personal full potential, you MUST have that base.

    Also, I do not dismiss the danger of blades. In fact I know just how dangerous they can be, and so does every other SBG Instructor. They part of the curriculum, and they are addressed. But, I am very wary of people who talk about cutting arteries, and stabbing people in the guard, etc. Many times (not always) these people tend to be the kids that got picked on in school, lack a certain sense of self esteem, etc. I believe that people like this can be greatly helped through SPORTS. Whether it's boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Judo, NHB, etc. This type of athletic event can help someone like this gain real self esteem. But too often, instead of going down that route they I see them being drawn into the "streetfighting/ tactical" stuff. And I think this usually just increases there paranoia and fear, and eventually leads to anger.

    This is why I think the sports paradigm is much healthier. The weaker members of our society are the ones that can use sports to improve their life the most. True self defense skills like awareness, maturity, lack of substance abuse, firearms, pepper spray,etc, can always be added. And should always be added. But the scared kids that get picked on are best helped through sports, and they are the ones I enjoy teaching the most because I have seen such a productive and great change that sports can bring to them
    -Matt (Mono Loco) Thornton"
    Last edited: May 28, 2010
  5. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    You could have the best of both worlds. Train in Goju Ryu then do kickboxing-style workouts if the workout is really what you liked best. I really enjoyed my time training in Goju Ryu.
  6. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Nice post Hello, thats what I wanted to say, you did a much better job.
  7. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    There fixed it for you!

    Lol, If your gaining skill stick with the kickboxing, if you want to train more check out other classes and go to both, but try and mainly stick with things that use a large element of sparring with contact in their classes, realistic sparring means your more likely to be able to do it in self defense.

    For self defense Muey Thai Kickboxing is pretty dam awesome.
    Last edited: May 28, 2010
  8. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    Go to the club that is offering to teaching you decent kickboxing. An hour of quality training will always trump 2 hours fighting thin air. Things such as gradings are for people who need the extra reassurance of a shiny gold star or to help a club earn extra cash.
  9. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Some Goju do knockdown as well, however I think the key point is do more quality training, with sparring, not less!
  10. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Remember sport fighting will increase non sprot fightin ability i.e. this story:

    ''A MIXED martial arts cage fighter who allegedly gouged out another man's heart and eyes after drinking mushroom tea is to face trial in northern California charged with murder.
    The Times-Standard said Jarrod Wyatt, 26, will also have to answer charges of aggravated mayhem and torture stemming from the grisly March killing of his 21-year-old friend Taylor Powell,

    Mr Powell, bled to death after his heart was removed from his body while still alive, according to his death certificate.

    Deputies, found Mr Wyatt at the scene. Another man had raised the alarm after allegedly seeing him naked and dripping with blood, standing over the mutilated body.''

    'caus thats how we roll...............
  11. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    The point I was making was go to the club offering the best training and don't get over concerned about gradings!
  12. john_iron_fists

    john_iron_fists Valued Member

    Guys, thanks for all the advice!!

    I think at the moment - I will stick to Kickboxing and maybe look for a dedicated Muay Thai/Kickboxing gym once I build up my confidence and skill. I have taken all your comments on board and now believe that enjoying the art is far more important than gradings etc. Switching style doesn't seem that necessary...
  13. caveman

    caveman Threadkiller

    You could go for self defence and sport, Waterloo judo club has the biggest mat in the north west and some of the best coaches.

    If the goju place is run by Roy Flatt, the self defence aspect will be excellent. Not all karate is the same.
  14. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    Gradings are a cash cow and for kids. You will be able to see and judge your progress within your chosen club. Why pay extra for grading?
  15. john_iron_fists

    john_iron_fists Valued Member

    Thanks mate, I have always fancied giving Judo a go. I used to practice JJ many many moons ago and enjoyed the throwing etc...

    Shame theres not a Judo place nearer to me, I live the other end of the city..
  16. caveman

    caveman Threadkiller

    Southender eh, never mind we all have our cross to bear.
    Okinawan karate is distinctly different from the Japanese variety, it works at a much closer range and is an extremely effective and some would say dirty style. You mentioned you have done Lau Gar and Hung Gar so you would recognise some aspects of Goju as it is closer to Kung Fu than most Karate. Its a good idea to go for quality of instruction over a prefered style. Which brings us here, you anywhere near Childwall?

    Shihan Roy Flatt is a 7th Dan under the illustrious Morio Higaonna. Thats a stamp of quality over certain other Goju organisations.
  17. john_iron_fists

    john_iron_fists Valued Member

    Haha yeah I know childwall very well!

    Thanks again for your help mate.

  18. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Self defence is less about the physical response and more about the lead up and set up of it.

    From both sides.
  19. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Why is that?

    I'm not doubting the gentleman's ability at his art but why would that Dojo be so good for self defence?

    I think it would help the OP if you clarified this. :cool:
  20. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    Good point. What's so special about Roy Flatt? I've never heard of him.

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