Bare Knuckle Boxing Talk

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Keith P. Myers, Mar 27, 2011.

  1. karl52

    karl52 openminded

    Hi Keith, I didnt mention before but I dont train bare knuckle boxing as such,More SD/power striking.I train under Dennis Jones,he used his own style on the door ,he tended to use big power hooks,everything thrown on a curve,but it was more about stopping the threat than boxing rounds,hence my style:cool:

    What I found interesting was he never favoured straights,if he was in a position to throw one he would tend to gouge or grab.

    I also dont rotate my wrist,more held in one position slightly bent,and perhaps slightly flicked in at the end

    Im more comparing notes really with what I use but back to bkb,Im like a sponge, have you got any footage of you guys training?

    cheers
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2011
  2. lklawson

    lklawson Valued Member

    There are some similarities in the Scientific Boxing (early 20th C, especially amateur boxing). I believe I still have an album tilted something like "Karate Boxing" on my flickr account and here on my CBD Facebook account. But I believe it to be very generic and a case of parallel evolution. I especially like the low block. I throw the album at my boxing friends from time to time to irritate them. ;)

    I remember his article in BB Mag back in the late 80's or early 90's. He makes an interesting case but his evidence is circumstantial at best. Wing Chun's apocryphal "history" doesn't help their case either, and when you combine it with the fact that you can't really document WC any earlier than about the time that LPR boxers would have been interacting with the Chinese, it makes an appealing, if threadbare, case. I don't buy it either, but it's fun to throw out and irritate my WC friends. ;)

    Another one to irritate my boxing friends. But Inosanto's case is even weaker than Godwin's. IMS, primary evidence for Inosanto was footwork, particularly certain angular boxing steps which he found very similar to Triangle Stepping. However, even cursory examination of LPR and LPR-MoQ transitional manuals shows this sort of angular footwork. Billy Edwards' manual is a prime example and easily predates the Filipino boxers which Mr. Inosanto references.

    There was a huge public "debate" on the merits of English Boxing vs Jui-Jitsu following the closing of Barton-Wright's club. Sort of a foreshadowing of the "Striking vs. Grappling" debate of the 90's. B-W claims that he tried to teach Tani Sensei (ims) boxing but he had no skill for it and refused. I find it more likely that Tani, being a Jui-Jitsu proselytizer, just saw no reason to learn and put no effort into it at all.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2011
  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I think this question was already addressed but I forgot to reply, so here is my reply.

    I believe this post from Boards can help answer the question:

    The weighted step I believe is basically driving the heel of the foot into the ground that is the same foot as the side of the punch. For instance, vertical punch with my right lead, I drive my right heel into the ground or in karate, right reverse punch, I drive my right heel into the ground. This can give great power based on the structure.

    Not to get too mystical, but from what I know of yin and yang, if the karate reverse punch with the right is yang, then the boxing right cross is the yin version of punching (these would be reversed on the left side, don't ask me why). Anyway, when punching with the right cross in boxing the weight is on the balls of the feet and the right heel comes up slightly. In this type of punching, the power is actually less than driving the heel down if you stand straight upright, so instead, to gain the structure for more power, you have to lean slightly into the punch. I think JWT posted years ago that the right angle for the spine on this lean is the same angle as the shin, so the more you bend your leg, the more you have to lean in and the more power you could gain. Of course if you lean in too much, you get sort of a haymaker.

    So back to the question, if you go to vertical punch, you may have altered your footwork without knowing it. If you strike vertical fist with weighted step, then you try to throw a punch with your other hand, you will see that your heel is already raised so unless you use a weighted step with the other foot, you basically are jamming yourself with your own footwork.

    So I suggest, after punching with the right hand, pay attention to if your left foot heel is up or down... make adjustments then throw your left hook. See if this gives you the power back.

    If you raise your left heel while left hooking, then lean into the punch for power; if instead you lower your left heel while left hooking, you have to do more of a punch that keeps the elbow down like a left upper cut.
     
  4. JohnnyNull

    JohnnyNull Valued Member

    Excellent point. I was just going to tough upon the idea of defense when I saw this post.

    In general, the horizontal strikes tend to raise the shoulders, shielding the chin. I also twist more when using a horizontal punch, which I imagine helps to cover body shots more appropriate to the high-volume boxing strikes.

    But, I'm completely making this stuff up as I go.
     
  5. Devon

    Devon Valued Member

    The Bartitsu Society has speculated that Barton-Wright's purported modifications of boxing for self defense may have taken it back in the direction of LPR pugilism, but he recorded so little about it that it's impossible to be sure. See http://www.bartitsu.org/index.php/2010/07/speculations-on-bartitsu-kickboxing/ .
     
  6. Keith P. Myers

    Keith P. Myers Valued Member

    Hey Devon!

    Thanks for the article! The picture of Barton-Wright in that article is standard LPR style boxing. There wouldn't have been much "taking it back", because that was the style of boxing in Barton-Wright's day. The article mentions "fair play" rules. These were for amateur bouts and eliminated the grappling used in the LPR rules. There was a period of time in England when professional prize-fighting was against the law. I don't have exact dates, but I think it was around this same time. The Marquis of Queensbury rules were around, but the transition was gradual, and the transition to the modern "style" of boxing was gradual as well. Robert Fitzsimmons published his book in 1901, when Bartitsu was in its heyday. I consider Fitzsimmons' book to be the last book of the LPR era. Jim Corbett's book came out in 1912 and one can already see the modern changes taking place. But Barton-Wright would have still been in the LPR era of boxing.

    It has puzzled me in the past why Barton-Wright would be such a strong advocate of Jiu Jitsu/Judo for grappling when you are past the boxing range, yet never really say anything about the grappling used in boxing itself. Maybe he was going for the "exotic" appeal of the Japanese methods to attract a following? Not saying that what he did was not good! There are many self-defense situations that the grappling in LPR boxing has no answer for, but that Bartitsu's Jiu Jitsu was tailor-made for!

    Keith
     
  7. Keith P. Myers

    Keith P. Myers Valued Member

    Hey Karl!

    Sorry, but I don't have any footage. I'm deployed to Iraq right now, so it will probably be awhile before I can put any up. Kirk Lawson or Ken Pfrenger may have something.

    Keith
     
  8. Keith P. Myers

    Keith P. Myers Valued Member

    Hi Kirk!

    There are some similarities in the Scientific Boxing (early 20th C, especially amateur boxing).

    ---Even earlier than that! Those same similarities are found in Benedict's Boxing book from 1893.


    you can't really document WC any earlier than about the time that LPR boxers would have been interacting with the Chinese, it makes an appealing, if threadbare, case.

    ---Yes, and more recent research into WC's roots shows some strong similarities to southern White Crane suggesting a direct link. And the aspects of WC that are similar to the old boxing are also found in other southern Chinese martial arts. There are very good reasons why WC looks the way it does and LPR boxing looks the way it does without needing to be somehow linked.


    IMS, primary evidence for Inosanto was footwork, particularly certain angular boxing steps which he found very similar to Triangle Stepping.

    ---Yes, footwork and the idea that the Filipino style of using a knife resembles the bobbing & weaving and short arm punches of modern boxing.


    I find it more likely that Tani, being a Jui-Jitsu proselytizer, just saw no reason to learn and put no effort into it at all.

    --Yeah, I find that VERY likely! :eek:

    Keith
     
  9. Devon

    Devon Valued Member

    I agree that is was a long process of transition, but the Queensberry Rules were first published in 1867, when E.W. Barton-Wright was all of seven years old. By the time he set up the Bartitsu Club (c1900), the Fair Play/scientific/amateur style had been standard in London for decades. There's evidence that some coaches were still teaching aspects of the LPR style (some standing grappling in Allanson-Winn's book on "Boxing", etc.) as self defense, or even to counter an opponent who played too rough in "friendly" sparring, but the rules of the London Prize Ring had been thoroughly outmoded by then.
     
  10. Devon

    Devon Valued Member

    Also, the notion of punching someone in the face for sport was deeply unsettling to many Japanese people at that time; it went against the grain of traditional notions of propriety and politeness. One of Tani's wrestling opponents was reported to have hit him (accidentally or not) during a match and Tani responded by walking off the stage.

    If Tani had learned some boxing, at least enough to be able to use his jujitsu to counter boxing punches, his own contributions to the boxing vs. jujitsu controversy would have had a bit more credibility. As it was, E.W. Barton-Wright and Percy Longhurst probably had the most balanced approach to that issue.
     
  11. Keith P. Myers

    Keith P. Myers Valued Member

    By the time he set up the Bartitsu Club (c1900), the Fair Play/scientific/amateur style had been standard in London for decades.

    ---They may have been following a different set of rules for bouting, but the "style" of fighting itself wasn't really any different from the LPR style. The style doesn't really start looking different until after the turn of the century.

    There's evidence that some coaches were still teaching aspects of the LPR style (some standing grappling in Allanson-Winn's book on "Boxing", etc.)

    ---Yes, coaches were definetly still teaching MOST aspects of the LPR style, including grappling, in Barton-Wright's day. And realize that even though the edition of A-W's book that we have available is dated 1915, there was likely an earlier edition around 1893 or 1897....still well within what I consider the "LPR era."

    but the rules of the London Prize Ring had been thoroughly outmoded by then.

    ---Only in the sense that rounds were now timed, fighters wore light gloves during bouts, and they weren't allowed to use any of the prior grappling. Otherwise, the style itself didn't really change for another decade or so as fighters learned to take advantage of the fact that they didn't have to worry about grappling.


    Keith
     
  12. StevieB8363

    StevieB8363 Valued Member

    Thanks, but the issue isn't power, it's accuracy. When I throw the left hook I raise the left heel, turn the knee inward, and twist the hips. The problem I'm having is that without the wrist rotation of the horizontal punch there is a greater tendency to pull the fist toward me at the end of the punch. I believe that I'm attempting to use the bicep to control/reverse the motion. Then again, I've been punching horizontal for years, I can't expect to change overnight. What I probably need most is some practice on a heavy bag.
     
  13. Devon

    Devon Valued Member

    I suppose it depends on how we're defining "style". To me, the presence of gloves and, particularly, the absence of grappling are defining elements of the boxing style engendered by the Queensberry rules. That's what I meant when I said that Barton-Wright's modifications may have taken the standard (Queensberry) style prevalent at 1900 back towards that of LPR rules boxing, at least as far as the speculative "Bartitsu kickboxing" was concerned.

    Going by the manuals from this period, I'm confident in saying that Allanson-Winn was unusual (not unique, just unusual) in including LPR-style throws. For the generality of boxers, the style had already changed decades before, to the point where Allanson-Winn himself acknowledged that he throws he was presenting were not to be used in competition.

    We have no evidence that Barton-Wright was even aware of the older methods; *assuming* that what they were working towards at the Bartitsu Club did come to resemble LPR boxing, that might have been the natural result of a few years of cross-training between Queensberry rules boxing and wrestling/jujitsu, rather than a deliberate revival of the LPR style. Perhaps that's part of the reason why Barton-Wright appears to have defaulted to jujitsu at close quarters for self defense purposes.

    I'm referring to the 1889 edition, which was still twenty years after the introduction of the Queensberry rules. I'm gathering that your definition of the LPR era doesn't match the dates when the various rule sets were introduced; what is it based on?
     
  14. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Ah... well power and accuracy are always related because they both depend on good structure to minimize wasted movement.

    The vertical fist hook is an interesting topic. You see more and more of it in MMA these days. As I understand it, the hook is actually delivered in to a target further away than a "horizontal" fist hook. I would say that I don't understand the tendency to pull the fist toward yourself as the target of a vertical fist hook should be about 150% as far away as a target for a horizontal fist hook. The vertical fist hook is delivered almost as a hooking uppercut, IME.
     
  15. StevieB8363

    StevieB8363 Valued Member

    Pulling it toward me is an unintentional movement as I clench for impact and withdraw the punch. If I hold my arm out in the hook position, horizontal fist, the bicep is relaxed. If I rotate the fist to vertical, the bicep tenses, creating the involuntary pulling motion. So what I need to do is push through more with the tricep.
     
  16. karl52

    karl52 openminded

    Thanks for the reply keith,best of luck out there.
     
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I'm having a hard time picturing this but you have evidently put some thought into it. I think if you push through with the tricep you might lose power as the hook is power from the hips and shoulders and the bend at the elbow stays the same pretty much the whole technique as far as I know.

    Here is how I've seen hooks with a vertical fist taught more recently with the target further away than for a standard boxing hook:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BCU64CwmYc"]YouTube - Learn to Punch like Chuck Liddell....[/ame]
     
  18. karl52

    karl52 openminded

    Chuck has very nice movement and solid impact.
     
  19. StevieB8363

    StevieB8363 Valued Member

    Chuck has a different hooking style which I'm not looking to emulate. He leans in a lot more than I do, and follows through a lot more. Sure it's powerful, but I prefer a snappy action driven by body rotation. Because I prefer to box at arms length my hook is more a "corkscrew" punch. My arm straightens slightly as the punch extends so that the impact is always in line with the forearm. Thus despite the "hooking" action, the fist travel in almost a straight line, but coming from an angle outside the centerline. It has almost the same range as my jab, slightly slower but a lot more powerful. It's the reflexive tension in the bicep that's throwing me off when using the vertical fist. My "muscle memory" isn't used to accounting for this. Plus the wrist rotation of the horizontal fist helped arrest the punch to prevent overswing. But now I've identified the problem I can start to correct it.
     
  20. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    So StevieB8363, that explanation helped. I could not figure out why you were changing to a vertical fist hook at the same range as a standard boxing hook. Now that you state it is further range (same range as your jab) and like a corkscrew punch, I think of that punch as similar to the fist rotated at 135 degrees to create what we call an overhand strike.

    A standard boxing hook has the bend at the elbow at 90 degrees or so. An overhand strike, corkscrews and drives down at about a 30 degree angle (the bend of the arm can start at 90 degrees like a hook but instead of remaining at that angle, the arm straightens). This is punch is used in Muay Thai because it raises the shoulder to protect the head from a counter punch.

    I'm glad you figured out what to do because unfortunately I cannot see a vertical fist working with any kind of overhand punch unless you start working with hammer fists. Sorry, but thanks for the discussion. Good luck.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2011

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