Banned from RVD's forum !

What i actually posted was

Note "Nowadays"

Lets start from there.

Gary Arthur

 

One of the books I always come back to when I need to clear the clutter out of my head and re-find my focus and direction, is that old chestnut, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.

As I read the conversation above between Garth and Ben, I was reminded of my own thoughts yesterday evening, when i read the following lines;

(pg 192)

if you can get hold of a copy of the book, have close read of pages 190-199, where he takes this idea and runs with it, imagining what would happen if the education system really was 'gradeless'

to precee the ideas he presents;

1. a student goes to college, but doesn't 'get into it', because there are no grades coming back on the assignments he submits AND no penalties for non-submission, he misses a few lectures and doesn't bother with the next assignment.

2. but now, he is missing the grounding which makes the more advanced material comprehendable, so he misses a few more classes

3. eventually he flunks himself out of college...

(p196)

He then goes on to describe what might happen next to our student..

1. gets a job, say a job as a mechanic

2. after 1000's of hours fixing mechanical problems, begins to get interested in machine design

3. has a go at making modifications to existing machines, but soon becomes frustrated because he lacks the formal, academic training which bridges the gap between 'fixing' and 'designing'

4. goes back to college to study mechanical engineering

(p197)


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the point to this little interlude?

simple really...

the free-man needs no external symbol to remind himself (or advertise to others) what he knows and understands.

oh, and the other point...

if you are going to sell knowledge and education then you really owe it to people to be doing it right.

and my personal opinion?

to be hung-up about your own grade is a cause for concern...

to be hung-up about someone else's....?

...answer that for yourselves.

 

Pretty **** poor etiquette having a 6th kyu publicly admonish a high ranking member of the same school online.
Why at that rank would he believe he could understand what was being discussed to a great extent.
This shouldn't be entertained. This is a big problem that exists.
RVD is definatly a showman. However since he has been in the Kan likely longer than a 6th kyu, maybe just decide you don't like the DVD and be done with it.
As for chatter, Soke talks alot too....should this be addressed by you as well??

Just my 2 cents, which is worth alot more in the states these days.

 

Let me return to in my second post

And that is the crux of the post.

Yet I have already been attacked for pointing out that this does not look good for the Bujinkan.

Surerly it is Benkyoku that this attack should be pointed at, as he was the one that pointed out how Mr Van Donk looks on the DVDs.

All I pointed out was that it is not good when one member of an organisation warns others about another member of the same organisation.

Now Ben states that Not to air this problem would be cultish, he put

And I think this is a fair point.

Although maybe its Mr Van Donk thats being cultish for kicking Kikaku off the forum for airing his views.

Yes, I agree with Ben that to stop someone airing their views could be classed as being cultish, but that does not mean that one has to air ones views over an internet forum for all to see.

In other words it does not look good to knock a fellow member of the organisation, especially when he has the highest grade obtainable below Soke.

In other words what i am trying to say here is that there is a difference between a cult and good organisational practice.

Xen posted

And I think this is what Benkyoku was pointing out in his post. So in this respect, regardless of what Ben put about grades being given out for numerous reasons, at the end of the day, the people who pay for this course expect good instruction from a 15th dan instructor who is at 15th dan techniques level, not because he is a good person, travels to Japan a lot, or is good at talking.

Gary Arthur

 

Whoa, Nelly!

xen, just an absolutely fantastic post here. Strangely, I read Xen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenence in college, and simply did not get "out" of that what I'm now getting out.

And I just read Gary's post, and it has some good, well-rounded views in there; the point about criticizing is well-taken, regarding a massive public forum such as this one. My post deals more with general lollygagging about with friends and other students, so it veers off-topic or spins it in another direction.

And the point about Hatsumi talking is apropo, too.

_____________________________________________________________

The part about instruction--about trying to whirligig around expectation by professors, is spot-on, and I, for one, am not ashamed ot admit I've clearly done just that on many occasions.

And, I also trumpet my failures as much as my success, and am secure enough in my abilities to be able to do so. What kind of an insecure, wretched little man would I be if I couldn't just mention, but laugh--while of course cringing--about my major screw ups? When I've trained and knew my training was "off" that day, or as I'd said in another post, "some really weak stuff", I let my friends know.

But, I also am secure in knowing that I learned from my weakness, that I can survive through it, accept it, and build a strong foundation that will help rid myself of it, correct it, modify or adjust it to better me, body and soul.

What kind of teacher would I be if I pretended I was the perfect instructor, infallible and unbreakable? I gladly go over times, to my students, when I've been bamboozled by plagiarism caught too late, stuck for an answer, or totally left portions of a lesson plan out. And you know what? I've been told, again and again and again, by, quite literally, hundreds of my students, that this quality of being human is why they keep coming back to my classes, why they enjoy class so much, and why they respect me as a teacher and a man. Does letting thousands of my students know when I've screwed up "hurt" the PA State System of Higher Education? Does having students, able to see where I, myself, have been able to work from the screwup and work through it, and warn them not to repeat my mistakes, help or hurt the System?

______________________________________________________________

And making fun of teachers who mess up royally, when they try desperately not to show it or try to evoke some kind of tough guy/hardass/can't be broken image, is what students of all stripes, from all backgrounds and in every discipline just do. I'm lucky in that my students make fun of me in front of me. I'm included in their jokes, their films and videos, their papers. They laugh over beers with me about times I tripped in class, said the wrong word, or just stood there with brain freeze, and they know it's natural. And they also talk about how I recovered just as quickly, and played off or used my mistake to teach another important lesson--one they will not forget, because my initial "mistake" drew them in so closely to follow the action.

But making fun of teachers who don't get it in a public forum?

When your teacher is the Headmaster from Pink Floyd's The Wall, and his wig is askew, you go back to your dorm and mock him. When your teacher tries to comport himself like he's the Second Coming of Martial Arts, and he screws up, you go to the pub with your friends and talk about him, too.

It's just what people do.

And, since people do it, we do it.

But, broadcasting it around the world?

Hmmmm.....


Off the thread drift:

if an associate of RVD wants to ban someone from the forum for speaking too plainly or frankly, it's their perogative, as it's their little club run to promote Rick Van Donk's materials and whatnot, so let them. And, if he makes mistakes on videos, I'm not sure I'd use that time to gloat over things, as that seems to be, well, a little like me making fun of my students or friends, or colleagues make mistakes.


Heck, if you've seen as many Tai Kai videos as I have, you'd also, perhaps, be surprised to see instances where--and I could be absolutely, one-hundred percent wrong about this--Hatsumi soke himself makes a "mistake", which ends up with him quickly recovering and pulling off brilliantly. These could, of course, only be kyojitsu, and I've utterly mistaken what I saw with my inexperienced eyes.

However, when I hear of a high ranking teacher fail or make a mistake, well. my reaction is, "So what?"

High ranking corporate leaders make mistakes, and entire corporations rise or fall based on how they recover, or don't recover, from those mistakes. Some end up paupers, while others end up princes.

Professional race car drivers, with thousands of hours of high-speed experience under their four-point harnesses, make mistakes, and sometimes the mistakes they make prove fatal.

Method-trained actors make mistakes--if they didn't, every single film would take ten hours to shoot, as each actor performed each scene flawlessly with only one take.

Soldiers--Delta, Alfa, FFL, whoever--make mistakes. SWAT teams enter the wrong houses. Artillery unit rain down 155 mic mic's on top of their own people, American fighter pilots bomb Canadian soldiers on training exercises or slice Italian Gondola wires in twain, and entire infantry units engage themselves in the dead of night. All, mistakes by trained professionals who should know better.

So, when a high-level person in the Bujinkan makes a mistake, and we trumpet it loudly, and we don't pretend our highest on high are infallible, perfect, without fault or blame, I find it refreshing.

I find it encouraging.

And, most of all, I find it human.

--Snake

 

fair point.

but so are these;

1. he was offering a personal opinion on a DVD home-study course, in response to a question which asked for peoples personal opinion.

As Kikaku clearly doesn't get kick-backs from RVD's DVD sales, why shouldn't he be free to voice his opinion on material he has forked out money for?

And why should negative criticism of the course be censored? Isn't it from the negatives that get pointed out that things improve? If the course is crap, the course is crap (I don't know, I haven't seen it), no amount of ettiquette will improve its worth.

2. Aren't RVD's courses split into kyu ranks?

So are you saying that a 6th kyu is incapable of comprehending the material designed for people from 9th-5th kyu?

If that is the case, then the course really is useless isn't it?

Wouldn't a 6th kyu be the ideal person to evalute the courses worth at that level...? He's the target audience for christ sake :bang:

3. He didn't rip RVD's taijutsu, he just offered an opinion on a piece of merchendise which is viewed as controversial at best.

Its funny we all say the ranks don't matter to us...

...until we need to bang someone over the head...

...then its pecking order all the way.

 

So perhaps you could be good enough to point out when "nowadays" started and "the good old days" left off?

We wouldn't want people to think that one could earn a black belt for three weeks of training in Japan, or anything of the sort....

I just took a read through all the posts till now and can't seem to find any "attack" against you. Would you be so kind as to back up your "woah is me for pointing out things" stance?

I guess I'm confused about why this would be considered "bad"--warning others of poor skills or bad products or bad attitudes or whatever....

It wasn't Richard who did so....

But why should Soke care about "the organization"? Soke *IS* the Bujinkan. He could care less whether the Bujinkan as an organization is stable, long-lived, or otherwise, imo.

So this is the problem--people THINKING that they know what the art is and insisting that because they pay money they should get what they want. By paying money or showing up for training, you get what the TEACHER wants you to have. Nothing more.

I would certainly argue that the art INCLUDES things like nurturing a good heart (prevents aggression against others) and learning to communicate well (prevents aggression against self), in addition to the "physical skills."

Everyone plays a role, even those with "the highest grade obtainable below Soke."

-ben

 

Perhaps RVD is ranked so highly because he keeps showing up to Japan and being told personally by Soke that he doesn't understand certain things. How long has RVD been showing up in Japan? The majority of Bujinkan budoka are not able to make it to japan consistently and rarely get told from the source that we 'don't get it', yet many are aware of this without needing to be told. I also posted my previous post to show that maybe Soke is of the opinion that some people talk too much as well. I have witnessed Soke cutting off, or redirecting a person from, talking too much when they were just called up to do a technique. If you are the teacher, then teach. If you are somewhere where another person is a teacher, then train. It's really very simple.

 

I agree. And then bragging about it on another forum is bad form as well. It's also tough to tell if this went far beyond that simple post as well, some PMs might have been involved too that were conveniently left out.

I've met Shihan Van Donk before at a seminar. He seemed to be a very friendly and approachable individual, and gave some good comments to myself and some of the people I trained with as motivation. The most important thing to do when someone is talking is listen, as you can find some good bits of knowledge tossed in there. I have the entire set and I think it is a good supplement to your training. Do I have many others that I use as well? Yes, but you can't always get the same information from one source that you can get from another. The more perspectives you can see, the more you can learn.

 

Now that really is ironic . You of all people pointing out posting “etiquette” and “integrity”, you’re not exactly the poster child for either. You’re a well know Internet nut rider, when it comes to that ‘other forum’ , who constantly bashes the Bujinkan. You love to stir the pot with any so-called “ammo” you can get your grubby little mitts on, by running like a little bitch to you know where. In fact, all I’ve ever seen you do is “brag”. Hopeless ! BTW there were no PM messages exchanged, I was just “banned” with no warning.

As Xen pointed out, if I’m shelling out $30 dollars for a DVD, I expect satisfaction. Regardless of who put the product out. It doesn’t take a 15th Dan, to realize that something is rotten in the state of Denmark, when watching the DVD. Besides since when is a warranted opinion (which was asked for) deemed “poor etiquette” ?

Here is some food for thought, most reputable sales people, stand behind their product, and encourage and even allow constructive criticism ! Since as Xen pointed out, it allows for potential improvement and it’s all part of customer service / satisfaction. They don't have hero worshipping, lackey "foot soldiers" banning you for going against their interests. Besides I think it’s safe to assume that Sokes “chatter” is a slightly more "important" than RVD’s.

I would have thought that, that had crossed your mind.