Banned from Boxing!

Discussion in 'Western Martial Arts' started by Louie, Dec 17, 2007.

  1. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Banned from Boxing! The forgotten grappling techniques of historic Pugilism

    Western martial artist Kirk Lawson has just published a book on the forgotten world of grappling from historic boxing.

    "Using antique boxing manuals as reference as well as a healthy dose of experience, Kirk systematically presents in easy to follow terms and sequences the throws, trips, and grapples of historic boxing".


    Attached Files:

  2. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Must... have... *gasp* *drool*.... :cool:

  3. Hiroji

    Hiroji laugh often, love much

    I bet thats a good little book.

    Ive often heard and read about boxing having all kinds of things like that in its past.
  4. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    I actually did start salavating a bit as I read the description.

    I'm owning it. Maybe not for a few months, but I'm definitely owning it.
  5. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    I'll let you know Xmas ;)
  6. Hiroji

    Hiroji laugh often, love much

    Cheers! ;) :D

    wish id have put that on my xmas list! :woo:
  7. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    I've got Tober's german longsword book for my Xmas and the wife wont let me see it before hand. Evil Woman!

    The Bear.
  8. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    ooh I want that book! :)
  9. Taff

    Taff The Inevitable Hulk

    If they're forgotten techniques, maybe they will be hopelessly outdated?
  10. Hiroji

    Hiroji laugh often, love much


    But i bet a lot of them are just the same if not very similar to what we have in JJJ, BJJ, judo, wrestling today...

    ...still be interesting to see.
  11. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    I haven't looked at the book, but I hardly think the techniques are hopelessly outdated. Well in a way, you're right, it's outdated for modern boxing. But some of us like to keep alive old traditions. My guess is that when boxing was streamlined into the sport it is today, there weren't room for grappeling in boxing anymore. Any UFC or MMA match will demonstrate that grappeling is efficiant enough.
  12. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    Having skimmed through it (birthday present for my son next week so I can't wreck it).

    It seems to be a whole series of throws, locks, sweeps and trips and when and where to apply them whilst boxing. Together with many techniques that a muay thai practitioner would be familier with but would be considered foul play within boxing.
    A few chokes and even the headbut is included. Tell you more after the 31st ;)
  13. lklawson

    lklawson Valued Member

    Louie you sly ol' scoundrel! Thanks for posting this for me! :)

    I've been trying to get my account re-enabled since you started this thread. Oh well, holidays, I guess.

    Yes Hiroji, you're right, many of the techniques illustrated are similar to what could be found in Japanese (and other) martial arts. There are only so many ways to throw or trip someone. The salient difference is that this is presented from a historic context of Classic Pugilism.

    I've set the Lulu page to display the first part of the book up through the end of Chapter 1 so anyone can see the Table of Contents (essentially one chapter per technique) and Index of Illustrations (more than 70) and all of the first chapter.

    I'd be happy to answer any questions concerning the book. Several people have advance copies including (as is apparent from the internal, back-of-cover, re-sale blurbs) Ken Pfrenger and Tony Wolf. Therefore book reviews should be coming soon from 2 to 4 different sources. I suspect I'll get a few demerits for the artwork due to the fact that I'm not particularly talented as a sketcher.

    Peace favor your sword,
  14. lklawson

    lklawson Valued Member

    I've noticed that because grappling has been reintroduced to a boxing context in MMA, that there are a lot of similarities in tactics and technical usage to Classic Pugilism re-entering MMA. I recall one fight where the ring commentators kept berating one of the combatants because he wouldn't tuck his chin in the modern boxing style (a requirement for modern boxing) and kept talking about how he was going to get knocked out, etc. His stance was very upright, though mobile, with his chin up and arms more extended than modern boxing. Looked for all the world like a Classic Pugilism "Attitude." He won the fight.

    Classic Pugilism is not MMA (lacking kicks, grasping below the belt, and ground grappling) though it's much closer to it than modern Boxing. Many of the techniques are quite valid in MMA.

    Peace favor your sword,
  15. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    Well alright, since it's come up...

    Is there any benifit to having the head upright and the arms extended? The head upright especially seems to almost beg for a knockout.
  16. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    None that I can see, the book is a very useful link for my son's thai boxing and judo though.
  17. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Arms extended, yes. Peek-a-boo style was developed with gloves in mind. Bare knuckle it's better to extend your guard because ungloved hands can't protect enough area.
    chin up, not really apart from keep in posture upright.

    The Bear.
  18. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    Well OK, but how does not having your hands anywhere near your face protect you more than at least an ungloved cover?
  19. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Ah but you do have one hand close to your face. The rear hand drops back to guard the face. The upright stance allows for far more lateral movement so you don't need to move the rear hand quite so much in defence.
    It is the whole body movement that is the core of the pugilist not the hands. The bare knuckle fighter doesn't need to generate as much power as the gloved fighter because you don't have to deceleration curve of the padding.
    The pugilist's punches are short and look nothing compared to the modern boxer's punches but then are doing alot more lacerating damage.
    To cut to the chase it's a different fighting style to the modern sport boxing and virtually usless with gloved hands. Take off the gloves and it is very effective. I wouldn't walk into a UFC or WBA fight and try pugilism.

    The Bear.
  20. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Hi Callsignfuzzy...

    The arms were extended to keep the opponent at a distance & preventing him from rushing straight in to grapple - The Wing Chun stance with it's extended arm uses the same principle; acting as a barrier which could also monitor the opponents position/pressure.

    In this style the head is erect probably because it's was simpler to tilt the head back or to the side to avoid punches.


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