Granted, this does not state they were used by men in the castle grounds in case of attack though... Which ninja though? there were many ninja clans at the time, it doesnt mean Kawakami's guys were there, it could have been anyone, there are no historical records apart from generalisation to say ninja were present. But the evidence in books shown by you (actually, Turnbulls book didnt say anything, refer to my ealier post of the book page where i asked you to show the part you stated) stated that these guys were intelligence workers, note the link about castle gardens being inside the castle walls... No it doesnt, the book you provided didnt mention gardening tools, can you provide anything else to back up these historical records? Where, please show, i've yet to have seen anything tangiable or confirming what you are saying.
I dont think he does, one of the main point here is that the castle gardens were inside huge walls and protected by lot of guards, and a moat, a suprise attack by a big army would have been spotted, an a ttack by a few guys would have been thwarted by the 100's of gurads in the castle, as it stated in Adaams's book, they were used for intelligence.
OK lets just surmise for a moment. Lets say that Tokugawa Ninja in the Employ of Ieyasu did use kama as a weapon. As a historian I still cant see how this lends any credibility to Kawakami just because he uses a kama. Garth
Bit off topic but thought it might be worth a mention. Although not a Ninjutsu ryu I believe that Asayama Ichiden Ryu is well known for it's kamajutsu, it is regarded as an school of bujutsu of the famer-bushi. Goshi I think they were called. Don't know if anyone can chip in on that?
Dean Winchester posted Interestingly the book on Takagi Yoshin Ryu I bought from Ikai 666 (Dr Stephen Greenfield) which is a translation of the Densho also has kama in it. Garth
Let's try this on: a. Kawakami & Kiamoto sensei uses as part of their weapons, a soup bowl. b. Surviving ninja warriors did eat soup at Edo castle (17th century food in Japan included soup), after Sekigahara. c. Common sense (If attack during dinner time...........) d. The Historical Record ( both the majority of evidence, Books on the subject and educated opinions) incline to this a a fact. Therefore (not alleging anything), for a person that has a Koka (koga) background, the uses of soup bowls as part of their weapons array, appears to match the historical record (both the majority of evidence, books on the subject and educated opinions). See what I did there? -Daniel PS. Perhaps you should wait to lecture us about arguments until you learn to avoid Appeal to Authority Fallacies.
Greatings. Dayn wrote Juan Hombre's last name is: HOMBRE. In Spain is common use both father & mather's last name after one's name, therefore...Juan Hombre Dopazo Dayn wrote Dayn, then you might get this...de que color es el caballo blanco de Santiago?... Dayn wrote Attendee.....I recall you telling me few times I was your guess, hmmm ( Although I finally end up paying as an attendee, no problem with that, I know you had big cost...) but! attendee as Dr. Febres, you just hurt my feelings...:baby: I do have to reminder you, that to get Mr. Kawakami & Mr. Kiyomoto to finally come to US, you did need some extra help from 3rd parties, I hope you don't forget & appreciate that, not only you used that help to bring them in, but also during the whole time they did stay in NJ, since you couldn't really take care of your main guests ( Mr / Ms Kawakami & Mr. Kiyomoto ) There is no need to get into father details on this, just please, don't speak about what you don't know properly (Juan Hombre & Sepulveda), I consider you a serious Martial Artist & civilized human being, so respect others, at least when they are not present. I know guys, welcome to the net right ..lol Dayn wrote I love it sideways style, but you know when... Were you present when Mr. Kiyomoto said that to me? Damn, with all my respects, you are "true ninja"; hear without been seen. One's again, please don't speculate about others...and more when we are not talking about going to buy groceries at the corner I'm not trying to create conflict, but just clarify & yes, Mr. Hombre is been my Master for many years, and although I might not be fully agree with his latest "politics", I consider him like family, and would "defend' him as so, like wise with Mr. Kawakami & Mr. Kiyomoto. Dayn, I consider you a quite experience & cultivated person, at least more than me, and will respect you like so, like I always've done since I know you. Lastly...we all know... "time puts everything where it belongs" Best, David Sepúlveda
It might not have been the agricultural/horticultural tool that most budoka know as the kama. If anyone who has lived in the countryside of Japan will know, a farmering/gardening sickle has a very light wooden handle and a blade that is angled roughly 30 - 40 degrees from the axis to that it cuts roots cleanly without making contact with the ground. It might have been the jingama (陣鎌) which was used by the buke warrior class. A jingama was a tool used by grooms in stables to cut horses bridles in case of a fire or if a horseman was thrown and had his foot entangled in the stirrups, etc. A jingama uses a strong oak handle, reinforced with iron rods and rings to prevent the wood from splitting from heavy use. The blade was not angled and had multiple uses. Yagyu Shingan-ryu Kacchu Heiho demonstrating the usage of the jingama. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt1AiyTh11g"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt1AiyTh11g[/ame]
As an aside, Takenouchi-ryu makes use in higher levels of nabefuta (ricepot lid), hibashi (iron chopsticks for firewood on a brazier) and even kasa (chinese parasol). These are used to teach the pracitioner to use his skills with any weapon and be adaptable. One mind, any potential weapon to hand. Araki-ryu, in their first set of torite kata, make use of a teacup on a sanpo. As the teacup is offered to the enemy, an aggressive initiative is emloyed to kill the enemy. The last kata in the set has the ware throw scolding hot tea into the face of the teki before employing torite. San Kyoku No Dan [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2_Z-whRDRk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2_Z-whRDRk[/ame] Could this not be the case here? I have a feeling that it may very well be.
You're getting at a strawman. At no point is anyone arguing that you'd use a kama when a spear or sword is hanging around.
I see what you did there. You argued for the Koka-ryu on display because in the case of your thought experiment, if all of the above were true and there were examples of other Ryuha using soup bowls *and* there was a specific history of a group disguising themselves as, say, innkeepers and cooks, then the whole thing combines to create a strong argument for plausibility. That's the situation as it exists for kama. But I bet you thought you were arguing the opposite. Sorry! Also, you're misusing the fallacy. It doesn't apply in this situation because it's closer to an exercise in informal logic. Furthermore, authority is not being invested with infallibility, or a rationale emanating pure from the authority, but by looking at authority in the context of other facts.
Mr. Sepulveda; " The color of a white horse" aside (and notwithstanding); - I used no one, Drove Mr.Kawakami, et al, to and from the airport and paid their Travel costs, Hotel costs (even when you managed to stay in Kiyomoto's room, your last night- and please don't play up "a relationship" from that characteristically generous act on Mr. Kiyomoto's part) and expenses -Daniel Dimarzio drove them when I didn't; they asked him even before I realzied I needed help picking up people such as you. I was not present for Danny's taking them to Philadelphia, nor their trip to NYC with Katie Takahashi, but they knew this would happen. -Comments about Mr. Kawakami's foreign students (that there are none) and the SPECIFIC comment I referenced, are verified and verifiable by Mr. Kawakami, Mr. Kiyomoto and Mr. Dimarzo - and were reiterated by THEM. Are you saying THEY don't know what they said? - I NEVER implied your were not going to pay a fee. You were, in a general sense, a "guest" as any paying attendee was a guest. I am aware of some of the more internalized Spanish naming customs.... I will amend my remark to allow for your teacher to also say "Hombre", as he seems to prefer. My point, however is made - and stands. As to the rest; the "Japan Ninjutsu Federation", that Mr. Hombre is actually representative of Mr. Kawakami and/or Banke Shinobinoden AND that Mr. Hombre's website somehow did NOT say "his friend and student was helping with the seminar"; Get me a contradictory statement to mine from Yasushi Kiyomoto as to the first 2 statements and I will certainly retract what I've said. I will publish it in this forum, along with a translation. Good luck; you'll need a lot of it. As to the last; I did read that and correctly. I will not bother to ask for an apology. I Will go as far as to withdraw my statement bout Mr. Hombre's next trip to Japan, in that I seem to wish him ill; I would hope that anyone enjoy a trip to Japan.
Link to the bullshido thread (you've been warned) http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2165101 which seems to back mr Derose.
I was looking at this vid again on bullshido and noticed something at 29seconds, watch his movement and body language, moves of a master? http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/banke+ninjutsu/video/x9qflp_banke-ninjutsu_sport
Hi; Yep; I did write that their "Ninjutsu was better than their Bujutsu". Remember that I did say that Mr. Kawakami is retired. His explanation for coming forward to the public at 60 (I'm 53 - so 60 doesn't seem that old..."WHO you callin' OLD you whippersnapper!) was that he felt he had, perhaps, 10 years of "health" left. I asked him - and after his health - so he explained that he meant "being able to be fully active". The bujutsu isn't seemless, so yes, I am not going to try to be an unconditional "apologist", but Kawakami's statements and his motion (resulting in hesitations in Kiyomoto's motions during 2-person kata) got me thinking about Kawakami's impressive demonstration of dislocating his own joints. There's only so long before you pay for that, physically speaking and the payment is with significant arthritis. My impression was that Mr. Kawakami was speaking about more and different than that. My previous speculation - and I freely admit it's speculation was about my performing a Judo Nage-No Kata with an Uke who was long away from it and no longer supple on his feet. Having had to demonstrate sections of the kata with a couple of such people (for students) I can tell you the result looks utterly awful. I really couldn't pay for a whole "troop" of Banke Shinobinoden students to come with them nor did they ask, so I can't say how it would have worked out otherwise. What I CAN tell you is that this sequence first came on the Net in a Youtube published by Dean Eichler, A.K.A "ScottBaioIsDead". I am told he is an 8-year shodan in Bujinkan Ninjutsu who was thrown out of the Bujinkan Tanuki Dojo in New York. He hand picked this worst sequence from the seminar (I will discount Dr. Febres' shuriken throws; he was an attendee indulging in casual practice - but y'know, THAT was shown as "The Seminar" too) to post along with personally insulting and very incorrect comments about people "twisting Meik Skoss's words", et cetera. The young man has a very large and fanciful agenda, for some reason. There is much more video, taken by many people. I'm at the US Fencing Association Summer Nationals, for the last day (since the 7th of the month). I will ask those whom I know took video to post other things. There's a "sword on sword" sequence which was much more interesting and had fewer "cobwebs" on it and THEN...there was the vast majority of the seminar, which was completely different stuff
hola ban-ke thread... I'll throw my hat in the ring, what the hell... First, I'll introduce myself: I am Jeremy Sather. Together with Katie Takahashi I had the opportunity to serve as Mr. Kawakami and Mr. Kiyomoto's interpreter over the seminar weekend. I was kindly invited by Dayn to attend the conference, and as I happen to speak Japanese, I sort of fell into the "after-hours" interpreter role. It was a wonderful experience overall, and I met a lot of great people. Thanks Dayn! For what it's worth, I thought the overall demonstration was pretty interesting. Having had no prior experience with Ninjutsu, I thought their techniques were pretty good (especially the movements/walking techniques). Particularly in light of Mr. Kawakami's age, performing techniques perfectly becomes increasingly difficult. As anyone who has ever taken part in an actual tournament or match will know, the things you've learned often come out a little rough in reality (due to nerves, fear, rage, etc), though one may perform it perfectly in practice (using punch-kick combinations in a match as opposed to just whacking the heavy bag, for example). I suspect, having had the opportunity to talk with both Mr. Kawakami and Mr. Kiyomoto at length, that they were a little nervous. Maybe a little tired as well from the flight...who knows. Also, as Dayn mentioned, Kawakami is getting older, and in fact if I recall doesn't teach much any more. Mr. Kiyomoto does the day-to-day administration/teaching. Anyway, I am not apologizing for them, just saying that there are all kinds of reasons why small flubs occur in even the most skillful practitioner's techniques. That's why people end up getting knocked out in MMA, Boxing, or Muay Thai, despite having wildly successful records: they usually make a mistake which their opponent capitalizes on. This often happens when they get older and lose their edge and endurance. We're all human, right? Anyway, I'll agree with Dayn and Meik Skoss. I think their "Ninjutsu" was far better than their "bujutsu." Meik made a good point: not everyone was a swordmaster; in the American wild west, many people were competent with their firearms, but few were master gunslingers. Same goes with swordsmanship. I think their swordsmanship was better than competent, especially if you watch the set of techniques where they both used swords. But having had the opportunity to see many Koryu swordsman in America and Japan, I would not hesitate to say their swordsmanship was inferior to those who dedicate their practice to sword alone. One last thing: Mr. Kawakami often said over the weekend that bujutsu was only a small part of their ninjutsu. I think that when you look at their art holistically, any deficiencies one might see in martial technique begin to make more sense when you realize they do a lot more than just bujutsu. Anyway, I hope this thread keeps going. It is fun to discuss what went on. P.S. on another thread, someone asked about the "rings" in Banke shinobiden, calling them chakram or something. They are called "kanawa" in Japanese, which simply means metal ring. I clarified this over on "Bullshido," but they are simply a cooking tool (place a pot on them then over a fire!), which they souped-up with some sharp edges and spikes. It was a common item in medieval Japanese households, and knowing how to pick one up and disarm an opponent would probably have been a good skill to know, as well as surprising to the opponent. Mr. Kawakami mentioned to me that no ninja would have carried them to battle or used them commonly, but that they were simply an improvised weapon. Phew, I wrote too much...Kudos to anyone who can get through this!
Not a big deal. Who told you this? I'm currently checking into it myself, just so you know. How could he "hand pick" anything when he didn't attend the seminar, and those who did, and have these more impressive portions video'd haven't seen fit to upload them? Where would he have gotten the videos? I was going to double check how it was presented, but it seems that the video of Mr. Febres was too....something, because that portion seems to have been removed due to a copyright claim by a Leon Major. Actually, more and more it seems that you are the one with the agenda, considering he doesn't post here, or hasn't in a long time anyway. Yet you seem bound and determined to bring him into the discussion. He argues in cuss words with children on youtube, yet for some reason you feel you need to drag THAT crap over here? For what? Vindication from the youtube equivalent of a ninja shock-jockey? Agendas huh? We're really not the kind of people to completely write off something simply because it's not very visually impressive. Alot of our art isn't very visually impressive either, people come in droves(usually when school lets out for the summer) to tell us that our techniques are crap and we're fools. I think we understand more than most that there can be alot more going on if you know what you're looking at.
