I'm not really a part of this conversation so to speak. But in some conversations I have had as of late, I think I offended someone. I have spoken to Dayn on the phone, a very fascinating and knowledgeble person. I was really interested to attend the seminiar, work got in the way when the dates changed. Dayn was very accomodating to me, I thank him for that and apologize if I stated something a tad off. I do that from time to time. Now being entitled to my opinion, of the videos presented I stated I wasn't impressed at that point. Opinions stand, but it is based on the video. My comment of being relieved I didn't attend was more again based on the video if that was the standard for the event. I am looking forward to more footage to have a more relevent opinion. The event though for me as a promoter of it was comped but it would have cost me almost a grand. So seeing the vids, well. I have been to many seminars, alot of the I regret attending. Booj and otherwise. It would seem that their paperwork checks out and such so it has been reported. So good. Nice to have another legit system. Prof Duncan. I have no issues with. I have long stated that I thought he was a victim of his times with the video. I would say many others made Hollywood style works, Hatsumi included. I have converesed with him via email. He is utterly proffesional. Very serious about his art. This seems to be what you need to do. Believe in yourself and what you do, and if that makes it for you then good. Thats all that matters. The same has also been said of the Kan as of late. His students and I have trained with a bunch of them are excellent. Very clean movers, very effective so hence that should represent what they have been taught. Therefore Duncan Sensei has something to it. Has anyone here trained with a Ways of the Winds student, if not then you only have public opinion to go by. I am not an academic, but I have at least trained with them. I have also invited folks to the events, offered to comp their training so they can as well. That invite is still open BTW back to your chat I had to clear my air.
i finished your sentance for you.... Where are the historical records? can you show them? all you have given is a couple of book exerts, one which i have written out which doesnt state anything about using a garden tool as a weapon, it states they were in intelligence, can you find me something to state 100% that these guys used gardening tools when attacked? Common sense would say you would know when you are being attacked thats why they had inteligence:bang: do you think one of the biggest castles in Japan couldnt see an attack coming?? Have you been to Japan and seen how castles are positioned? big walls? no gardens on the othe side of the moat?? do you really think they would be positioned for a weak attack??? http://www.jcastle.info/photos/view/231-Edo-Castle Yes, but this is not what we are on about here, you are talking about the historical fact that a kama was used. What i've done is added the page for you, can you read out loud which line says the ninja were outside acting as gardeners with kama to use just in case they were attacked? cus i cant see it!!
sorry for the pic, had to re-size... Just to note though, i walked around the whole of the outside of the imperial palace in Japan, i noticed it was walled all the way around with no gardens outside of the walls, so if they were gardening the outer area this area would still be within these walls and not subject to a sneaky attack that you are implying http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e3017.html and look at that big big moat around it.... http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&hl=en&tab=wl
Dear Hayseed (Carl); OH YEAH?!? OH.....YEAH?!? ...You're utterly right, of course; I let the young man's Youtube rants get to me. They went beyond any question of lineage to "the personal". Still, I apologize for letting it get to me. I do stand in 2 worlds though; I wasn't referring to "getting physical" to prove a lineage - in the gendai world, "the mat" is one of the ways one "tests conclusions", as Robert W. Smith used to say. Even then - it shouldn't be done with out and out neck wringing in mind. Still I let the issues get confused - my fault entirely. Please believe me, if I thought a "beat down" would've somehow proved legitimacy, I would never have arranged a panel discussion, as Mr. Kawakami requested. Lord knows; as specious as a brawl would have been, it would have been easier than arranging the discussion. As it is, I've vehemently requested that Kawakami and Kiyomoto follow up with a publishable article, hopefully followed by a generally available book. They've got contacts now that can help them translate their writing and publish copies of their documents. I directly said to both men that, if they want to "get any further", they must write things up, before they demonstrate again. I also must get some of the INTERESTING and well-performed things Kiyomoto did onto the web in video. David Gibb; Yes, I wasn't that happy - but watching our guest attendee Carlos Febres (no offense!) obsess about nailing shuriken throws (want to watch paint dry, anyone?) on video and a gusari-kama sequence be typified as the whole event - when the infiltration techniques, hiding techniques, specialized walking (& creeping & crawling) hojo-jutsu, amazing Houdini-like joint dislocations, methods for striking from hiding and returning to hiding, exhibition of how fireworks diversions, etc., were used, the slide show lecture about the Ig Museum and so on, were really GOOD, is quite frustrating. Mr. Weidman hit it right on the head; Taijutsu & Kenjutsu per se, were in the minority of the material. I'm not usually the guy who says "thanks; I needed that", but well,....thanks...et cetera. When my wife and I added up the necessary minimum costs to get Mssrs. Kawakami and Kiyomoto here to do the event and it came out to the price we knew we were going to have to charge, it was a grim moment, believe you me. I digress; Hayseed, you're no...ah,...hayseed. I apologize for my outburst. Bujingodai; thank you for your comments; hopefully I can get you video of the bulk of the event to watch! I am getting to understand why annoying newbies bother you guys; you've got a great group here!
Hi Nutjob & Uzugi; I think you've got a sort of mis-directed issue here. Banke Shinobinoden techniques don't seem to have kama in them because of Tokugawa's having hired Ninja as "gardeners". BTW; the Roman Empire had spies who were first called "speculatores" (which, of course, means "those who spy", not "those who speculate"). As the whole process developed, they eventually as an imperial service, became known as "Frumentarii", essentially "grain inspectors". That position gave them a cover which allowd them to travel the Empire. Apparently, the term became a frightening word - at least some people knew that the "Grain Men" has nothing to do with Grain. This could give "G-man" a whole new meaning...or a very old one. I suspect the Shinobi "gardeners" held a similar position. Kawakami simply lists a ryu of "Kama-jutsu as one of those in the bujutsu lineage he learned. I paid little attention, I do admit, because of Kawakam's explanation about bujutsu ryu in a Ninjutsu lineage being mostly a matter of locality and because...again, I mean no offense, kama just don't interest me personally. I was surprised to see that Kawakami and Kiyomoto didn't bring kama with them, to demonstrate. Given my proclivities, I didn't give it further thought.
Theres not a grain of truth to that and I think your speculating. No actually very interesting thank you Garth
Not really no, you see, Uzui said this...... His evidence to what he said was two books, is he saying these books prove that Kawakami's ninja protected the castle with Kama? i couldnt see any of that in either books, in fact it does not metion tools used and what was used in an attack? He mentioned historical records? where? what are they? do they state kama were used by gardeners in the castle??? Great... Agreed but where is the historical evidence to match up Uzugi's claims regarding kama?
Well..... Can I call you "JImmy"? Mr. Kawakami really didn't refer to "kama usage matching historical records" in his exposition or when answering questions at the panel discussion. I'm not going against Uzugi here - I don't know who Uzugi is, or his background - but my distinct impression is that both the kama and the garden shears came under the rubrick of "improvised weapons". I AM projecting from this point onward, but I do believe that Jay Gluck, in his old book describing Kyokushinkaikan Karate and Aikido put it best - (I paraphrase from distant memory) "If there were modern-style street gangs in Old Japan, we'd see kata for tire irons and car antenna". Gluck refers to the traditional Japanese adherence to a "Shikata" or exact method for every activity. Kawakami really refers to the "standard weapons" of Koryu Bujutsu by observing (again I paraphrase) that there were, in the main, no "Ninja Weapons" there were Samurai/Bujutsu, etc., weapons that Ninja used. Your weapon and bare-handed bujutsu knowledge would depend on your area of residence and clan membership - hence, what bujutsu ryuha your teacher knew to teach you. So Jimmy/Nutjob, I am concurring with you. Mr. Kawakami is from a fairly rural area in Fukui. It makes sense to me that there'd be a tradition of kama usage out there. Might I recommend a fictional piece to illustrate something? Watanabe Ken's "break out role" was on Japanese TV, playing a character made famous in novels by a writer named Ikenami - "Baian the Assassin". Baian is a really nice, much beloved physician, who doubles as an "Ansatsusha" (Assassin), properly termed in the novels a "Shikakenin" (essentially a "Mastermind"). There's absolutely no mention of shinobi or any connection between Baian's murderous usage of an ultra thick accupuncture needle. His closest and very loyal friend backs him up with the classic flute/blowgun. Now - don't pounce - I'm not saying anything's so because of a fictional TV show (though you've just got to see the how; it's good; there are lovable, humorous assassins who share their personal issues and always seem to be helping others by removing bad people- the Master of Sinanju never had it so good)! The point is that the art of assassination can be completely separated from Bujutsu proper. It really can be viewed as a bizarre, dark quasi-medical specialty. It can certainly be something he average person who studies martial arts doesn't care to know. Kaqakami's explanation was that a shinobi was first and foremost a spy and a scout, skilied in assassination. Ana analogy I hope you will find interesting - though it does not attempt to prove anything directly about Kawakami and Banke Shinobinoden; I became very interested in potential/rumored combat use of the Puukko; the "Finnish National Knife", which looks oddly very similar to a Tanto. The Finn's really "stuck it to" the Soviets in the Winter War, just preceeding WWII. Rumors of really nasty knife skills floated around about that conflict, but were never officially observed. I found that the "Finnish style" knife was he one most often used in Sambo related knife combat - so I asked a Finnish Army Vet, through the wonders of internet chat. He checked with his Dad, who'd fought in the Winter War. The result was that there was apparently no structured use of the Puukko, though troops were equipped with a vicious version of that normally short blade. Thing was, they were largely "farm boys" who had slaughtered animals. Their practical knowledge of comparative anatomy was...very effective. So...(and only by extension) Tantojutsu and Tanto randori can be one matter...while sneaking up on someone with a knife can be quite another. The second could turn into the first if you botched the job. As to TRUE CQB, the older Finnish Vet said "Knifes in close combat?! There were a MILLION of them and 20,000 of us! Close Quarters Combat for us, was tommy-guns and hand-grenades! I know I'm going far afield...but y'know, I'm hoping you'll see what I found interesting about that subject.
Please forgive my atrocious typo's. I'm using a lap-top from a remote location and the keyboard is killing me!
Fantastic post. Thank you very much What you say makes sense with my own observations and you highlighted many interesting points that i was unfamiliar with.
go on then, if you must.... i know that, you know that, the audience on her know that so why is Uzugi insistant? I just want to hear his historical record evidence instead of quoting a couple of books, i'm happy if he can produce something a little more tangiable.. but you do agree as you wouldnt bring him up Honestly, Kawakami is not in the spotlight here, if his ninjutsu is legit then good on him, Uzugi on the other hand is a speculator...
It's not mysterious. Kama are still used as standard Japanese gardening tools. You can buy them online for gardening. If you did any brush clearing in Japan in the last few centuries chances are you used kama. http://thejapanwoodworker.com/product.asp?pf_id=17.200.210&s=JapanWoodworker
Nutjob; there's an old saying: "If you want me to disagree with you, you'll have to pick a different subject"
I'm certain Kama were used as improvised weapons and also certain there is kamajutsu in various Ninjutsu ryu (ryu in the Bujinkan even have some varied kama techniques) however the argument here is not whether there is proof of its use but rather proof of its use as a dedicated weapon. An analogy to my point. Many military organisations around the world use a shovel as a tool. Depending on which organisation some even teach combatives using a shovel. Although some organisations (Spetsnaz) have very comprehensive and effective shovel techniques they don't actually use a shovel over their AK-47s in combat. The shovel is just a back-up weapon in freak case when their Assault Rifle doesn't work, their sidearm doesn't work, they don't have a knife and so on. Similarly in the Australian Army certain corps train to use a pistol however in the case of combat they would never pull it out and use it instead of the Steyr unless they really really had no other choice. Kama are an improvised weapon you would only use unless you really had to. They weren't a dedicated weapon and if given the choice the super secret ninja gardeners would grab a spear, bow or sword instead of running into combat with garden sheers. See what i'm getting at?
Please Lord Buda, give me Strength:bang: OK, lets try this again........:Aegis: a. Kawakami & Kiamoto sensei uses as part of their weapons, some gardening tools. (Kama) b. Surviving ninja warriors did serve as gardeners at Edo castle (17th century gardener in Japan uses kama as part of his tools), after Sekigahara. c. Common sense (If attack during gardening...........) d. The Historical Record ( both the majority of evidence, Books on the subject and educated opinions) incline to this a a fact. Therefore (not alleging anything), for a person that has a Koka (koga) background, the uses of gardening tools as part of their weapons array, appears to match the historical record (both the majority of evidence, books on the subject and educated opinions). Gentlemen....... I fell to understand the difficulty of my statement. This is not a statement for or against Kawakami sensei's. It is only what it is. Now, there was another thing that cut my attention during the seminar and this one do comes with empirical evidence. But before I go there, I'll like to address Mr. Nutjob & his k-friends. Gentlemen, arguments are good. They keep the mind alert and when done in good order, everybody gain from the information. However, if you can't present your opinion without insults or dis respectable comments against your opponent, then sir, you have lost.......:evil: Takamatsuden students, Koga students and independents are reading this posts and judging us by our writings. Not that I care that much but I try to keep my comments to the issue at hand with no cheap bravado. :saz: So by all means, tell us what you are rather than who you are. This is the first and only time that I will refer to you direct, and for that my apologies. On my next post I'll talk about the other thing at the seminar. Uzugi :hat:
Uzugi, Can you produce these historical records or reference the ones where you have stated... Originally Posted by Uzugi Gentlemen, After Sekigahara (summer 1600), Tokugawa established his capital at Edo (present day Tokyo). The surviving Iga & Koka (Koga) people were given the responsibility of protecting the grounds of Edo Castle. They fulfill that function by becoming groundskeepers & gardeners. Gardening instrument became their main weapons in case of an attack. Kawakami sensei uses of Kama and other tools appears to match the historical record. If you feel i have insulted you please point out where and i'll either apologise or you can take it up with a mod, otherwise stick to what we are talking about and stop side tracking into personal issues. In your post you said Originally Posted by Uzugi Additional information about my previous post can be fond in the following books: 1. Ninja- by A. Adams, 1st Edition 1970, Page 43, Last Paragraph 2. Ninja- by S. Turnbull, 1st Edition 1991, Page 84, Second Paragraph Is this the only real reference you have to back up this claim that Kama were used??
