Bagua Animals?

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by onyomi, Aug 8, 2005.

  1. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    http://www.traditionalstudies.org/ysb/credo.html

    Has anyone heard of or practiced this? I never really hear of Bagua being spoken of in terms of animals, with the exception of a form called "dragon bagua." Then again, I only do Liang style, so maybe it's something unique to Yin style? Besides the eight mother palms and palm changes I have read of a number of more advanced Yin forms like "Tuituo-zhang" and "Dailing-zhang," but have never found a reference to twelve animals before elsewhere (I thought that was more a Xingyi thing?) Do any Bagua people have any info on this?
     
  2. The Student

    The Student New Member

    From my understanding, every CMA would have some aspect of Bagua in it, some more than others. Althought some have specialised in this aspect and from it formed it as a Style (please shoot me if I'm wrong).

    I have no knowledge of Bagua as a system, so I'm not much help.

    But as they call it Yin style, to me I think feminist characteristics.
     
  3. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    The "Yin" in "Yin style Bagua" is not the "yin" of yin-yang. It's the surname of the style's founder, Yin Fu.
     
  4. The Student

    The Student New Member

    Ooops.... Thank you, I probably should have read the site.
     
  5. Ziranmen

    Ziranmen New Member

    Gao style Bagua has 12 animals sets as well. They are different to the Xing Yi sets.

    http://cstang.www3.50megs.com/palm.htm

    I think the Animals are straight line sets although I'm not totally sure. There's another branch of Bagua in Korea that has straight line sets as well that came from Lu Shui-Tian, a famous Chinese master that moved to Korea during WW2. Park Bok-Nam studied under him there and moved to the US in 87. I read his book on him. Quite impressive.

    http://www.pa-kua.com/
     
  6. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    Interesting. Thanks for the link. I think the nomenclature of Bagua has me confused. Let me see if I can attempt to sum up what I have learned from my brief study of Liang style and people can add/correct (regardless of style) as they see fit.

    First we have the eight single palms, which are eight different palm positions held while walking a circle with accompanying movement sequences to switch from circling left to right. Then there are the eight mother palms (old eight palms), which is eight different longer sequences or "palm changes" to be used to switch from walking in one direction to the other. The palm position used for walking these circles is always the same, i.e. the standard Bagua one palm extended, one palm pointing approximately at the elbow of the other, both facing down. Then, at least in Liang style, there is a set of 64 techniques divided into segments of 8 techniques each, performed in straight lines going back and forth. This is called the "Straight Trip 64 Palms." This is as much as I have studied, but it's my understanding that then there are then somewhat more advanced sets like "pushing-supporting palm," "swimming body," etc. that are more like the forms in other CMAs (?). I think "swimming body" is a Cheng style set and "dragon" is a Yin style set? Are there any other sets people practice?

    So do other styles of Bagua define their "old eight palms," etc. in this same way? What other forms are present? Are they more like other CMA forms, or are they more like the circle-walking/palm-changing but more complex? Are these animal forms sets of linear techniques, perhaps? Or does each animal have a set of its own? Or is it more like each animal represents a different fighting strategy/method of issuing power, etc.?

    Any more info. would be much appreciated. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2005
  7. Ziranmen

    Ziranmen New Member

    Whoah, is that site saying they actually have eight completely different Bagua systems depending on the animal you choose? I've heard of animal sets within a system but I've never heard of that before.

    Fu style is quite common, I've read about it and I know it has a stronger emphasis on evasion then Cheng.. but I've never heard of the an animal system thing... anybody a Fu expert here?
     
  8. dashao

    dashao New Member

  9. middleway

    middleway Valued Member

    the animals in the Yin Fu line relate to the 8 mother palms AFAIK.

    I trained in the gong bao tien line for a little while but only did basics.

    My gong fu brother Paul Alexander trains Yin Fu system under Master He Jin Han, i will try and get some info.

    kind regards.

    Chris
     
  10. Ziranmen

    Ziranmen New Member

    Yeah, I was looking around and found something similar..

    "Yin Style Ba Gua 64 Forms (8 palm change sets of 8 palm changes each, a set for each of the eight animal-character Kua, 4 sets emphasizing upper body movement and 4 sets emphasizing kicking and stepping)"

    But that guys website says something different:

    "Realising perhaps the limited time he had, Dong taught his other students differently from Yin. Whereas Yin Fu seems to have learned the complete system (he certainly had the time to do so) of eight animal subsystems, the other students seem to have concentrated on just one of the animals - most famously Cheng Tinghua, who specialised in the Dragon subsystem. Perhaps Dong hoped that after his death his students would co-operate and reconstruct the total system, each contributing his own speciality. Unfortunately they did not."

    If I understand correctly, he's saying Cheng style Bagua is just one subset and that there's another seven where that came from. I'm skeptical.
     
  11. Kempo Fighter

    Kempo Fighter New Member

    I too am Skeptical, Cheng Style isnt just a subeset, although Cheng style does indeed stress the dragon, but then again, since the dragon represents grace, agility and fluidity, wouldnt technically, all ba gua follow 'dragon' trainging and excercise?
     
  12. middleway

    middleway Valued Member

    yes i wouldnt agree with this chengs system isnt one of the yin ba gua animals ... They are mainly to do with certain organ powers. 'lung palm' heart palm' etc.

    I have studied a fair amount of Cheng and a fair amount of yin. the two styles are distinct.

    As i understand it Yin Fu Learnt the complete system from Dong starting with a Lohan system which Dong was teaching. Many of Yins students outside the palace learnt a different system to those inside.

    In the gong bao tien line many of the basic training principles look very similar to Lohan with straight line sets that are then use on a circle. Master He's movements do look very old. I have seen his system in action and it is very complete and complicated with a much deeper body method than the cheng systems i have encountered.

    The likes of master Cheng ting hua learnt based on their previous skill base. Mainly absorbing principles of ba gua's power generation and movement tactics from dong.

    These masters then built and expanded on what dong taught them building their own complete systems.

    this is how i understand the process anyways.

    Regards
    Chris
     
  13. Kempo Fighter

    Kempo Fighter New Member

    Just to add a bit, Cheng Ting Hwa's version also, aside from the power generation portion of it, also built on A lot of Joint Locks a strong handed moves, hence his monicker, "Invincible cobra cheng". Secondly, the fact that cheng focused on dong's movement teachings just keeps on furthering the evidence that Cheng style focuses on the Dragon, with all the flexibility and grace that the chinese associate with the dragon symbol.
     
  14. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    I've been reading more of the site and it says that the lineage holder of this "complete" Yin Bagua is named He Jinbao, now that his master, Xie Peiqi has recently died. Has anyone here had any experience studying with either of these masters or their students?

    They're selling a very large number of DVDs, approximately ten sets for each animal, with 4 hours of video in each set! That's forty hours of video for one animal! It doesn't seem like they could devote so much time to it even if each animal was just associated with one mother palm. I'm tempted to buy one since I would think they must give a very thorough treatment of all aspects in order to take up so much time, but they are also not cheap so I'm a little reluctant. Of course, length of video is also no indicator of quality. Has anybody ever seen any of these?
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2005
  15. KRONOS

    KRONOS Valued Member

    I've been practicing Yin style bagua through Dr. Xie since 1996.

    In each animal there is 9 postures, 1 is the representative posture of the animal, the other 8 represent different striking methods.

    Take the postures from the yin style dragon and you will see similar equivalents in the 8 mother palms from Cheng style. They are 'grinding the mill stone posture' and (tui, tuo, dai, ling, ban ,kou, pi,jin) [push, lift, carry, lead, move, capture, chop, enter.]

    The Dragon system is the Zhen trigram and is the oldest son and one of the Yang trigrams. The yang trigrams have circular striking methods using linear stepping methods, the yin trigrams have linear striking methods with circular stepping. The snake (middle son) and bear (youngest son) are actually more circular and flowing then the dragon and fight at a closer distance. The phoenix (oldest daughter) might actually appear a little more hard and angular.

    If you purchase a video to get an idea of the systems vol. 1 and 2. are the best. Volume 1 has the mother palms and volume 2 has some applications.

    Cheng style after Dong's death was producing the largest number of fighters and when they ran into other people practicing say 'phoenix' they would correct them saying that's not bagua (unaware) they were doing a different animal. That's why you'll come across the grinding millstone posture along with various other 8 mother palms. If you look hard enough you can still see who must have learned some of the phoenix system.

    Yin style practitioner were only supposed to practice the 'peircing palm' sets in public, which are a conglomeration of the various animals and use the peircing palm posture which is the trademark of yin style. It was meant to hide the true practices and hence is become what people think of as yin style.
     
  16. Dillon

    Dillon Valued Member

    I've worked briefly with Dr. Xie and He Jinbao as well. All I can add to what Kronos has said is that Jinbao is probably the best martial artist I've ever met. If I ever decide to train Ba Gua, he's who I'd track down.
     
  17. KRONOS

    KRONOS Valued Member

    Here's an article with He Jinbao, which better describes the animals and Yin style.

    Yin style Bagua article


    He Jinbao will be doing some seminars in the U.S. this fall:

    Sept. 6-12 - Vermont
    Sept. 13-26 - Massachussetts
    Sept.27- Oct. 3 - Michigan
    Oct. 4- 10 - Arizona
    Oct. 11 - 17 - San Francisco

    More info on seminars and contacts:

    http://www.yinstylebaguazhang.com/Announcements.htm
     
  18. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    Thanks for the info. :)
     
  19. BgRdNk

    BgRdNk Banned Banned

    Xie Pei Qi's 8 animals

    Xie Pei Qi prefered to each each student one of his 8 animals. (the one he felt fit thier body type) the animals are the lion which uses the wheel step. the unicorn which uses a hooking step. The Dragon (swinging step), phoenix(crane step), Bear(withdraw step), Chicken(lying down step) Snake(water dripping step) And Monkey(interlinking step). i had the opportunity to train with Xie pei Qi many years ago, he was a friendly and incredably talented man. Perhaps the best martial artist i ever had the privilige to meet.
     
  20. averan

    averan New Member

    8 animals

    its hard to try to understand the complete history of how the many bagua styles came to be, and which is better......etc.

    so here are some of my beliefs based on my personal study of bagua, daoism, and the iching.

    for me, bagua is the study of the principles of daoism and its application on all levels. with special focus on the ba gua....8 trigrams/8 animals.

    the patterns and relationships that evolve from the ba gua dictate the movements, shapes, energies, forms, techniques of the martial art. but to call it a martial art might be a slight insult, as the art teaches more than just martial fighting ability.

    bagua is by its very name based on the 8 trigrams/shapes/animals. to be effective martially, it is not necessary to be a master of all 8. even great mastery of just one technique can yield success in many a fight.

    with some study of the iching and the nature of the 8 trigrams, the holographic nature of this philosophy becomes apparent. it is all simply a matter of scale/perspective. at each level you have 8 animals/energies.....or 5 elements/phases......or a yin and a yang.

    whatever your chosen frame of reference, you'll see that perspective patterned all around you, and within you.....above you, and below you, etc.

    a complete system of bagua zhang will at least recognize the 8 trigrams/animals and have a way to develop and train them. i understand that some might find it very practical to study and master just one animal or approach. it makes the time to effective self-defense much shorter.

    so, yes....there are 8 animals, 8 jin, etc.

    and you can display 1 animal outwardly in a posture and be using the jin of another inwardly, thus combining 2 trigrams to express physically one of the hexagrams of the iching.

    the idea is to understand and be able to express each of the 8 energies clearly and be able to express them in any of the 8 animal ways.

    this is my personal understanding of bagua and my goal in training. to distinguish the 8 energies internally and the 8 animals externally so that i can use any of the 64 combinations whenever needed.
     

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