Bad Ninjutsu Videos and Critiques w/o Off Topic Videos

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Fu_Bag, May 5, 2011.

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  1. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    For instance: http://www.ww.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1074723313&postcount=356

    dunc also seems to have the respect of some people who are convinced it can't work after attending the MAP meet, even though I'm pretty sure he wouldn't say that he is more skilled than Hatsumi or the MK holders.

    @Giovanni: didn't you do Hapkido or Aikido? Didn't you say that once you found a format whereby you could actually apply some of those techniques, you found some of them were useful? I'm sure I remember something like that...

    It seems that with many of these TMA's the onus is on the student to devise a training methodology that works for them, as classes are merely the transmission of technical repertoire.
     
  2. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i can debate as much as i want on a public site. i have neither insulted you or your art, but am questioning what i see as untruths.
     
  3. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    It's a mixed bag, that's for sure. I've never seen a Buj video that had it all - principle, technique and application all at once.

    Having said that, there are certainly little bits of gold dotted about if you can see past the delivery and get the message behind it.

    This is one of my favourites:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ey_b8vbKW7k"]Hatsumi Tougher Bujinkan Training Days 1 - YouTube[/ame]

    I wouldn't use most of the techniques, and the method of demonstration seems far removed from reality, but if you took that concept and ran with it you'd have a badass skill set added to your tool kit.

    EDIT: though it is hilarious that this is uploaded as "tougher" training ;)
     
  4. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    By now we know how it can be justified. Take your pick...

    Hatsumi is showing something we don't understand.
    Hatsumi is showing something wrong to weed out the people that are easily taken in.
    Hatsumi is playing. We can't look at what he does but merely must use him as inspiration.
    Hatsumi is on a different level. Ignore this and learn the basics.
    This would work if you were at Hatsumi's level.
    Come to Japan and you would find out the truth.
     
  5. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    yes! you remember correctly.

    i originally got into hapkido about 20 years ago at a gym in my small suburb. that particular dojang was a sin-moo dojang that also hosted a judo instructor. and we fought judo at least once per week sometimes more. the dojang proprietor was keen to ensure that students could perform under pressure. because of life events, i kind of fell away, and moved to a much larger city. i got into a classic kidohae hapkido dojang about 15 years ago.

    as i progressed there, a small group formed attempting to pressure test the techniques. it wasn't so formal. it was more like 2-3 of us trying to earnestly figure out how we could use what we were learning. i felt that there was always a place that the energy stopped. and it was usually at the point we had to apply the devastating finishing move. and at the same time this was happening i was getting back into judo, reading about sport arts more, watching mma tournaments and attending low-level mma events.

    once i got my first dan, i knew i needed a change. i went to aikido which i absolutely loved, but i never felt that it was for fighting. to me aikido is principled and esoteric. not meant to deliver fighting techniques, but meant to deliver a format for understanding fighting principles. i can honestly say that aikido still informs my wrestling. meanwhile i'm also getting involved in a local (and old) judo dojo.

    then i hopped into bjj and haven't looked back since. through my gym, i've been involved in some boxing, and have had some eskrima sessions locally. but i'm pretty much all gi/no-gi submission wrestling at this point. and with my age and family situation works really well for me.

    cheers.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2016
  6. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    honestly, i know it sounds trite...

    but it really is the training method, not the techniques. sure, lots of techniques work. but if don't train them right, when you need it, forget it.

    i'm currently looking to get involved in some reality-based sd stuff, you know with pads and helmets and multiple attackers. so far, haven't had the time or the inclination to find such groups.
     
  7. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Hate to sound trite but....

    You aren't saying anything that hasn't been discussed before or that anyone here doesn't know. So again, if you want to find out how you're beliefs in your prowess are misguided, you could easily make a vacation out of it. You could stop by after going to the Yoshinkan or Kodokan or whatever. Anyway, this isn't really the thread for true confessions so I'll leave it at that.
     
  8. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    and yet, we see videos of hatsumi larping and dudes hitting their head against a tree. and we're constantly reminded that there's a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, in japan.

    please quote me where i said i was some tough guy to be feared or some sort of bad-****.

    i am planning on visiting the kodokan when i visit tokyo. thank you for asking

    i'll re-iterate: i will post whenever i want however i want, including my training story as i see fit. the ignore list is an option for you, or report my posts to the mods and see what they say.
     
  9. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Well, you know where the Bujinkan hombu dojo can be found. If you ever show up, you will understand. There's no pot of gold, but there are masters who could kick you into next week or knock you out with a thumb strike so I'd check the attitude at the door if you do ever decide on serious inquiry.:)

    This is a zero tolerance forum, it was nothing more than a nice friendly reminder. Anyway, enough off topic bandwidth wasting for now.
     
  10. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    And the question is, why is that? The three should exist in symbiosis within any functional system. If the principle is sound then why is the technique used to demonstrate so abysmal and so unbounded by the realities of both combat and physics?

    The video you posted showed to my eye the concepts of short range power, limb destruction and few other things and was all fine, but like you said, its hung on some fairly unrealistic arm hanging attacks in the usual manner. The disconnect between theory and reality is still there even it's no where near as bad as other instances.

    That doesn't mean everything shown by hatsumi is ultra bad, or even not good, but some of it is so bad it actually beggers belief.

    As Smitfire said this is never usually acknowledged unless to caveat that acknowledgement in one of the excuses he listed.

    I'm prepared to accept Garth's hypothesis but it doesn't paint hatsumi well that he's happy to court his cult of personality and take the money of people lacking in either the experience, cynicism or mental acuity to see through his untruths and obfuscation
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2016
  11. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Same for every gym where they hit back.
     
  12. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I'm sorry but what actual videos are out there in the public domain? Mostly demos, Hatsumi sensei "playing," and people mimicking that. So what do you expect?

    This isn't the place for this discussion, and if you took the time to read around, you'd see that all this and more has been discussed ad infinitum on MAP(among other places). Plenty of people with experience come to visit him because they see something of value in what he knows.
     
  13. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    So there, it isn't any different from any other gym. Happy?
     
  14. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    What I find surprising is that I'm probably not even 5% of the martial artist hatsumi is.
    And yet...and yet....I'm pretty sure I could come up with 5 year black belt study program that would create rounded and competent fighters, that offered a good width of study in various aspects of the martial arts but still with appropriate depth to ensure functionality, that served as a feeder program to find exceptional students suitable for further detailed study, that demonstrated and explored principles as well as the techniques themselves, that brought me in good money, ensured the continuation of what I'd learnt, etc etc
    Hatsumi hasn't done that seemingly? He's created some of those things perhaps but not the basic functional lack belts bit.
     
  15. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Why would you assume that he hadn't? When he was actively teaching, he did just that. A few of them here:

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    There's video of him teaching and demonstrating. What I would expect is 'better'.

    Dean Lister is a pretty damn good coach. He certainly knows his leg attacks... But if he put out tape of himself falling into north south and xblocking a teep to demo entrance into a toe hold, I'd have similar questions.

    I don't doubt hatsumi has skills as a budoka purely for the length and breadth of his training but he also appears to be peddling nonsense. I wonder why.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2016
  17. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I'm assuming he hasn't by the god-awful state the bujinkan appears to be these days, the patchy quality of its exponents, the bad demonstrations we see, the unrealistic techniques on show, etc etc.

    So who are the people in the picture and where are they now? Navon on the back row I think?
     
  18. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Cool. No need to go to Japan then.
     
  19. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I explained it pretty much all here:

    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103623&highlight=quality+control+bujinkan

    Nobody ever said there was. That is an option only really serious interested seekers should take. Everyone else has Youtube.
     
  20. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Well that's an interesting post regarding the micro and macro cultural influences on regulating the members of the bujinkan and the transmission of the schools. But it doesn't really explain why hatsumi himself is happy to perform utter nonsense on video and at taikai and what purpose this serves.
     
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