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Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Judderman, Aug 8, 2010.

  1. Judderman

    Judderman 'Ello darlin'

    I was thinking about the different audiences we (the MAP community and the specific ones in the "real" world) talk to. It occured to me that almost every demo or conversation assumes that the person we're talking to has some idea about the physical movement of fighting.

    So I was wondering what advice some one would give to an absolute beginner?
  2. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Nothing works 100% of the time.
  3. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    from what I have seen of real fights ( a few up close and personal, quite a few on video, i like to look for what works and what doesnt, so i look at vids, and a load of sparring in the dojo) I can tell you to work on your tools. You need effective tools for each distance. Also be aware of how most people fight in a street situation. Here the statistics as I see them in percentages of what is used in the street fights I have seen.

    Punching/hand strikes: 70%. The most reactional and intuative way to try to cause damage to a fellow human being. Even someone who has never been in a fight or trained a day in his life can throw these to some effect, expect wild flailing AND quick trained jabs.

    Throws: 20%. wrestling throws, just plain yanking of clothes, clinches. this generally happens when strikes dont do their job. Learn to keep balance and to throw others off

    Kicks: 5% you do see them on occasion, both martial arts style thrust and roundhouse kicks (dont have to have training to throw these), knees are used to extent as well , and the football style kicks and stomps to downed opponents.

    Exotic: 5% headbutts, eye gouges etc. expect the unexpected.

    This is NOT a coverall and exactly how things are, just basic estimates on what I have seen used in real street fights (i.e brawls, attacks (intent to maim, kill) muggings, drunken atatcks)

    In my opinion, if you develope some weapons of good to average quality (I for example have average punches and kicks, and just under average wrestling) and get experience in defending against the above, you have a fighting chance. But what must not be underestimated in keeping a clear head, if you dont you could freeze up and get killed , or not control and end up killing or crippling someone without reason. What has been your guys experience?
  4. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    You never mentioned going to the ground. I'd say it's probably a decent percentage that in a lot of fights at least one person is on the ground at one point or another.
  5. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    tell you the truth kuma, when there has been ground actions it seems that one quickly rises and begins wailing on the other. Its hard to lock in a choke, or arm bar or whatever and hold it, when the other guy can bite, scratch, pinch, strike anywhere including eyes, throat, genitals etc. What i see is, guys go to ground, one gets a foot up and begins smashing the other guy in the head, or kicking him with soccer style kicks, often helped by others.
  6. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Should you not train that scenario then?

    The OP did mention real life scenarios after all.
  7. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    You need to keep watching your videos then.

    "Its hard to lock in a choke, or arm bar or whatever and hold it, when the other guy can bite, scratch, pinch, strike anywhere including eyes, throat, genitals etc."

    I would also suggest making a friend who does Judo or any kind of grappling art and cross-train. You'll learn that this statement isn't very reliable.
  8. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    thats cool man, always up for a change in views. Want to do judo actually, would complement kyokushin very well.
  9. Judderman

    Judderman 'Ello darlin'

    Interesting stuff.

    I guess I'd start with, no-one can teach you what to do in any situation. You will do what comes naturally. Find out what that might be and train to improve it.
  10. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I think I may have answered some of your questions on the Koyo's book thread.

    First principle..Don't get hit..second principle..remember the first.

    First principle of martial arts? Ichi gan..first the eyes. Train to become alert and to see clearly the suroundings and dangers.

    I like the idea of being a NICE guy and WARNING them of the fact.
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2010
  11. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Surely every fight (where the combatants really mean it) should involve someone going to the ground, even if its the very last thing that happens in the fight!
  12. Judderman

    Judderman 'Ello darlin'

    Having read your other post, this makes more sense :cool:. I like the idea of Ichi gan, hence posting the other thread. Its surprising how many people train and believe they can handle themselves, but have no idea about this sort of awareness.

    So do I :D
  13. -Harlequin-

    -Harlequin- Valued Member

    How many steet fights have you seen?

    The idea behind locking up an opponent is not to hold the position unless the situation arises to do so. The methodology of locks is control, the control is the option to break limbs and joints quickly from the hold, why in a self defense situation with more than one attacker would you 'hold' an armbar. An armbar is powerful by its nature of breaking the arm, if done correctly.

    Have you practiced any groundfighting?
  14. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    How many? dont have an exact number but quite a few. used to live above a street full of bars and a tub station in central London, used to see bout 1 a week at least. plus have watched a load recorded on cctv and by home cameras etc, have a collection of about 50. Not much groundfighting though. but i am open to change my mind, I know next to nothing about ground fighting. Though I can say I have seen guys try to put a lock on some guy, and in one case for exampe, get hit by a golf club by a Turkish guy who got it out of his car.

    What i wont change my mind about is that real fights seem to consist mostly of punches, throws, headbutts, ground and pounds, and leg and body kicks. All these I have seen in person AND on records of real fights from a number of other countries ( Russia, the states, akrica, china, poland etc)

    No head kicks, fancy aikido throws, or fancy spinning areal kicks
  15. -Harlequin-

    -Harlequin- Valued Member

    I will agree that head kicking, spinning kicks and fancy throws are not essential to a self defence based art, in fact probably hindering any real fighting methods in real combat.

    Any self defense based martial art that doesnt practice groundfighting is not only missing out on an essential part of fighting but also not really teaching self defense. You may have seen many fights consist mostly of standup oriented work but I could say the opposite is true of what I have seen, whereby because the fighters dont know what to do on the ground, neither can take the advantage without help.

    Its a well known fact that if you do go to the ground and there is more than one opponent, you will be in trouble, groundfighting more than one opponent is a desperate measure/last resort.

    But, I hope weve all seen the videos of royce gracie, destroying so called 'masters' who believed that groundfighting was not essential to self defence, he brought each one down to the ground and forced submissions from them, in fights on thier terms, in thier dojos.

    Most improtantly for a self defence man wanting to stay on his feet, how can he expect to do so if he has no idea of how to deal with an attacker trying to take him down, learning groundfighting is essential to learn how to not ground fight. To dismiss groundfighting and claim to practice self defence is a fools game to play.
  16. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    I do not dismiss groundfighting, in fact it was a large part of the art that I want to replicate as close to its ancient roots. Pakration. Its combination of swift straight punches, stomach/leg/groin kicks, throws and locks, seems perfect for the way I fight. I definatly wanna learn some ground fighting. I was only saying that I have never seen any technichal ground fighting in the real life and video taped street fights I have witnessed. Which are many. That doesnt mean they are innefective or useless. Just that they are not used alot on the street. And if they are effective and practical in the dojo, it may be an even better idea to learn it. Not expected or trained much.
  17. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    This is the very exact same thing I believe. Those who want to strike as their primary strategy don't need to know all the submissions and rubber guard and a lot of the other more specialized stuff. The main thing they need to focus on is familiarity with the postures (an emphasis on being on the bottom, as that's where you'll most likely end up), sprawls, and escapes with maybe a few submissions and counters thrown in for good measure. Simply because I often have a handgun on me, I really don't want to be in a bad position where my opponent can get his hands on it.
  18. -Harlequin-

    -Harlequin- Valued Member

    But if you are untrained in groundfighting how do you know what technical groundfighting looks like?

    You seem to have made pretty accurate percentages about the types of fighting used in the things you have seen, but if you know how to groundfight, how do you even know where the technical groundfighting exists in the things you have seen?
  19. robin101

    robin101 Working the always shift.

    I have not trained in it, but having watched MMa and UFC etc. I know basically what it looks like. And mostly what see in real fights is rolling around on the floor a little, till one guy got up and started punching the other dudes head in. Doesnt mean ground fighting doesnt happen. Just means I have never seen/recognised it.

    As i said. I do not disrespect/ or talk down ground fighting. But you need a good standup game too for real life fighting.
  20. -Harlequin-

    -Harlequin- Valued Member

    Yes you do, but you suggested a good standup game is all you need, and that is what I disagree with.

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