I understand the rule very well thanks There was no information provided other than one hit the shoulder and one the face. When you add aditional variables AFTER the question it is no longer the same question, and if you want such variables to be considered then you need to state that. The shoulder could have been a shrug block, the jab could have broken the nose. Either way you cannot load a question with hidden qualifiers as it is intellectually dishonest - futhermore you pretty much just proved the point you and FC were arguing against
Hanniball, I asked how the jab,cross,hook would score not when they entered the Muay Thai arena. What techniques score in Muay Thai? The simple answer is all effective MuayThai techniques. However, this needs some explanation. The technique needs to be a Muaythai technique and not a kick or strike from another form of martial art. To produce a good score the technique should have a visible effect on an opponent. If a technique strikes the opponent’s arms or shin, then generally the technique doesn’t score. However, there are exceptions. For example, if a kick makes contact with a fighter’s arm and physically moves the person being kicked or causes them to lose balance, solely due to the kick’s power, that kick would score; although not as highly as a kick that had the same effect but cleanly made contact with the body...The Ax kick is not a Muay Thai technique
I asked you what would be needed for either technique to score higher didn't I? So why didn't you say "effect!"? Anyone who understood Thai scoring well would have answered my simple question quite easily
Plus I never said the axe kick wouldn't score!it would depend on effect. Fact is, body shots score high. Ax kicks are to the clavicle or face , they would need to be spot on to hit and ko. Bare in mind that a return (counter)after an attack can neutralise an attack, the axe kick can leave you very open to such a counter.
No one is denying that, no one is saying otherwise - the discussion (argument) started because a technique that is used, permitted and can score in a Muay Thai fight was deemed "not Muay Thai" In strict terms, mayhap not - BUT THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT IF THE BOXING PUNCHING ANALOGY! If "effect" is the criteria then the axe kick IS Muay Thai because it is allowed and it scores - to argue against this is a robot killer
He he all I said is this isnt in the right forum and looked what ts caused! The AX Kick isnt a taught technique in pro Muay Thai end of really,night all
A good understanding of muaythai scoring is invaluable. Many martial arts can cross over quite easily (weapon hits target and scores) muaythai requires a little more understanding than "stick an axe kick in there"
I don't think anyone was saying it is a case of bolting on a kick. The OP acknowledges it is a predominatly TKD style shot that is unorthodox in MT, but as it is LEGAL and USED then the "real" aspect of the discussion is moot and irrelevant "Sensible" and "high percentage" are completely seperate issues Now I am NOT a MT fighter - although I have trained under former World Champs and still dabble occasionally because as a JKD fighter I will pretty much steal any technique that is not nailed down - but how can you argue it is not a MT technique when it is permitted AND scores? That is patent nonsense
Thats my point Haniball,I dont belive it is..."The technique needs to be a Muaythai technique and not a kick or strike from another form of martial art" I certainly havent seen it taught in Gyms in Thailand or used in the top pro stadiums.
Good deflection away from the scoring there An axe kick can be used ! I wouldn't recommend it and neither would 99% of successful MUAY THAI champions and trainers but hey ho., the style hoppers know best
The minutae of scoring is always down to the individual - ask any boxing judge, MMA judge or indeed ANY judge of a sporting contest. Specifc to the kick, most have stated not a good idea per se; all agree it is legal...well except FC and that appears to be a matter of personal taste as much as anything else.
And agin we find ourselves coming round to the "when DOES it become MT", hence the diversion about boxing style punches entering the system - at what point does it "become MT"? How do you reconsile your view with daggers - you are effetively diametrically opposed. You cannot BOTH be correct about the issue - I fall on daggers side of the fence vis a vis legality
Lol don't think you'll get asked to judge may Thai fights thank god. It's a bit more complicated than that Everything scores equal , effect over opponent , control of opponent, off balancing opponent are paramount! Having said that.. Roundhouse kick is deemed a higher score than a punch of equal effect , as the hand is padded by a glove , knee to the body is deemed a high score as its harder to land than a haymaker. Elbows are best used to cause cuts not ko. If you can return with a solid shot after EITHER BLOCKING OR TAKING a shot then the shot you blocked or took will not score as high. Regardless of wether you take a shot or block it, If it moves you/shows effect it WILL score You can move backwards forward, left or right and win as long as you are in controll of your opponent and yourself. Showing pain will mean you are scored upon, facial expression of pain, frustration etc will show effect and therefore score. If you get your leg caught yet deal with it YOU will s ore higher as you are in controll .
I too have never seen, taught or used an axe kick This is indeed a kickboxing/tkd/k1 move used to hit a target and score a point (as discussed, not the same as muaythai scoring) anyone who uses goes into a fight banking on knocking someone out , especially with an axe kick better get used to failure.
Problem is that although the criteria are defined, they are still subjective - so just like boxing & MMA there is vast room for interpretation As to never seen it taught - probably not. But that is not the question or the issue Is it legal? If yes it must score n'est pas? Ergo if it scores it HAS to be a MT technique, albeit a recent addition Hence I cannot see what point you are arguing anymore, or even what the judging ( or my lack of experience therein) has to do with the OP or the evolution of the sport So is it legal or no?
I think daggers has a much more complex method of scoring than I use when I judge Muay Thai fights. We use a 10-point must system and pretty much the more aggressive fighter that controls the fight will win the round. Knockdowns score higher. A round with no knockdowns will probably score 10-9 in favor of the fighter that I score as winning the round. If there are knockdowns, it will probably score 10-8. A score of 10-7 is rarely given as when you get such lopsided scores there usually is a knockout instead. I'm pretty sure there is more to it in Thailand as I've seen entertainment value as a factor in scoring. More risky maneuvers done well can get the crowd behind the fighter, giving better scores. However, fighters need to show respect to other fighters, the referee, and judges, so I can see using more mainstream Muay Thai techniques as a way to showing respect and thus that can affect how you are scored. I think the axe kick exists in Muay Thai and is called "Tae khao". As far as I can tell, like spinning back kicks and side kicks, only a few fighters really use them often. I think that if a fighter did well and these moves became a sort of signature move that the crowd can identify with the fighter, that would draw more fans to the fights and then the technique could score higher for that fighter. I also think maybe that if a fighter tried these moves but used them in a disrespectful way, the fighter would get low scores and boo'ed by the crowd. Just my humble opinion. As for the OP question, I think I have been on the receiving end (almost knocked me out) of an axe kick that came off a fake or missed round kick. The round kick was an upward round kick to my head, I leaned away so the kick missed me but my opponent saw that I was basically flat footed (didn't move my feet cause I was tired I think... he told me afterwards about seeing I wasn't moving me feet)... anyway, the round kick missed and he brought his foot up, then back down with an axe kick right behind my shoulder just as I was shifting my weight forward.
Daggers is scoring it as the major stadiums in Thailand score and he has it bang on. I dont believe the Ax kick is a Muay Thai technique,maybe Im wrong but no camp in Thailand teaches or uses it so on that Ill stay with believing it isnt until Im proven wrong.
Is it legal in the ring? The answer to that question by its very definition will prove you right or wrong regardless of your personal taste for the technique
I have always belived it not to be Haniball and thats still my belief now,the rings I am meaning are the ones in the Major stadiums in Thailand,the rings I have never seen one used in
