Authentication and rejection of Ninjutsu from Japan

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Silv, Jun 9, 2008.

  1. SgtGF

    SgtGF Part time lurker

    That's certainly one way to look at it.

    The other is something like this. One is a man who has encouraged the spread and evolution of the style and traditions of his teacher and is refrenced by military special forces units in regards to awareness and stealth; the other is a man who is apparently unwilling to let his style be exposed to any public scrutiny, and from what you've said, is perfectly content to let it die with him.

    I appreciate the amount of time and energy you've put into this Silv, however eveything you've produced leads me to an exact opposite conclusion. We're both predisposed to totally opposite viewpoints, and unless there's a positively quantified scientific study of the records both men have this is just going to go back and forth with no real end.

    There's also the very real possibility that both linneages are based from Iga shinobi and NEITHER is the "sole" inheritor. One just might be more politically acceptable to those funding the museum than the other. Not to mention all the controversy over which one is the "real" source of ninjutsu information creates interest. Interest creates tourism, tourism creates money. It's in the local governments best interest to keep the controversy going. So while I don't doubt there is some excellent knowledge and exhibits at the museum, using it as your only criteria seems no less limited than someone who believes everything a congressman or senator says.
  2. shinbushi

    shinbushi Reaver

    Lets be honest, individuals in special forces units. practically every art can claim that members or even whole units train in their art.
  3. Big Will

    Big Will Ninpô Ikkan


    So, has Jinichi Kawakami anything to do with this?

    And why do they teach Shinden Fudo Ryu?
  4. Silv

    Silv New Member

    This book says Jinichi Kawakami no longer teaches or takes on new students:

    The link from the museum is to Banke Shinobinoden's website but Yasushi Kiyomoto is the only teacher.

    On the main Banke Shinobinoden website it also says there are no teachers/instructors overseas and no branches overseas:

    As stated on their website, they do teach Shinden Fudo Ryu.
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2008
  5. Silv

    Silv New Member

    Video Clips of a young Jinichi Kawakami (many years ago), notice how conditioned his hands are. Many people have implied he is only a historian affiliated with the Iga-Ryu Ninja Museum...........these small clips show he has trained hard and extensively:

    [ame=""]JINICHI KAWAKAMI SOKE - YouTube[/ame]

    [ame=""]JINICHI KAWAKAMI SOKE - YouTube[/ame]
  6. dra_uk

    dra_uk Lost in Translation

    That clip implies that he isn't the brightest bulb on the tree if that's what he does when he's driving.
  7. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    I'm not attacking Kawakami here, It'd be nice if there were more schools out there, and I haven't studied him enough to say either way.
    I've heard this many times, enough for it to be the second most significant argument I know for him, followed by the apparent endorsement by the museum.
    If it were karate or judo, that'd be one thing, but he claims to teach authentic ninjutsu. Wouldn't one want to be able to pass as something other than a hard-trained martial artist? Hiding your weapons is such a big part of martial arts, I find those knuckles to be more of an anomaly than proof. Even among martial arts where hand-conditioning is a big component, I haven't seen anything like that. I've seen thick fingernails, scars, and leathery skin, but never growths like that. I find it hard to believe that Kawakami has somehow taken hand conditioning to an epic level beyond anyone else as an explanation of this.
  8. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    No they don't. They at most show that he has hit his hands on hard things. That's no indication of having trained hard and extensively. Nor is it a particularly good sign. Smacking your hands against rocks isn't really a good idea.
  9. Malcolm Sheppar

    Malcolm Sheppar Valued Member

    The disguise element of historical ninjutsu is greatly exaggerated. Historically, there was no way for anyone to "blend in" in any feudal community, because they were far too small and tightly knit. Nobody could ever pass themselves off as a local at close range, because everyone knew their faces, so there's no point in worrying about your hands, especially when half the locals probably have calluses from farming, manual labour and military drill (as far as the last goes, this includes farmers, since they could try for a military posting to improve their lot) anyway.

    Anyway, this training method is already a part of Bujinkan koppo -- it's just that nobody actually practices it. This is what your hands look like if you hit hard objects over and over again while undertaking a few additional steps.

    Like I said, that's what your hand will look like if you constantly condition it. There are folks out there with even more extreme signs of it, like Pan Qingfu.
  10. Malcolm Sheppar

    Malcolm Sheppar Valued Member

    I've seen photos of him doing sword work as well. Incidentally, smacking your hands against hard things is pure Bujinkan.

    Funny quote from Kawakami (according to Wayne Murumoto on E-Budo), relevant to the Bujinkan: "There are no fat ninja."

    Now I have my doubts about him. Hatsumi too. And the book on Lulu is probably awful, because its blurbs are written in an extraordinarily amatuerish fashion.

    But I think the real point of contention is that true or false, there's another guy out there who's just as Japanese and just as chock full of half-substantiated claims as Masaaki Hatsumi, and that just annoys the crap out of people. I'm sure it's even more annoying that he doesn't even seem to milk the ninja thing for money, either, and apparently has no interest in expanding issuing membership cards or even communicating with anyone except for his student.

    Obviously, somebody in Japan with no X-Kan affiliation should go talk to him or his student, and figure this out -- or at least provide a better than Babelfish translation for his web presence.
  11. shinbushi

    shinbushi Reaver

    You mean like Takamatsu sensei's fingers and toes?
    I don't know anything about Kawakami, but conditioned hands should not rule anyone out.
  12. EWBell

    EWBell Valued Member

    I agree. I do believe Takamatsu sensei said that kind of training wasn't necessary anymore, and one shouldn't give the appearance of being a martial artist. However, I think a certain amount of conditioning is unavoidable, but I guess Takamatsu sensei was saying just don't make it so obvious.
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2008
  13. Silv

    Silv New Member

    Ahhhhh, this is the video I was looking for:

    [ame=""]Endureciendo Nudillos - YouTube[/ame]

    This man obviously takes his training seriously. Anyone that knows anything about Jinichi Kawakami knows that he has dedicated his life since he was a child to Ninjutsu training. His training is extremely harsh and brutal. He lives and trains the same way Ninja of the past did.

    He obviously trains hard. Why would someone who has done this to their body lie about the art they study? I would think that if they take the art serious enough to do this to their body they would not disrespect it by lying.

    He was asked to be the director of the Iga-Ryu Ninja Museum because of his training and dedication to the art of Ninjutsu. It's not like he applied for it and went after the title. Experts studying Ninjutsu recognized who he was and wanted him to help with the Museum.

    His teacher Masazo Ishida was a well-respected martial artist in Japan. It's obvious Banke Shinobinoden doesn't care what the rest of the world knows about them. They have only recently offered a little information about themselves to the public. It's obviously at their discretion to disclose any information about their art, Masazo Ishida, and any other related information. I wouldn't hold your breath. Being that they have remained underground for so long it is amazing that they have actually let some information come out about themselves.
  14. Marnet

    Marnet Banned Banned

    I know one thing is for sure. I would not train under Kawakami. Smashing your hands and knuckles against rocks goes against everything i have been taught and everything i believe about ninjutsu.

    If this is Kawakami's ninjutsu then it is not the ninjutsu for me.

    He may be legit but he could also be a fraud. Whatever the case i don't agree with his methods.
  15. The Force

    The Force Valued Member

    Man I don't care how strong those hands are, I would never want my hands to look like that!
  16. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    I agree with everything your saying and I don't actually doubt that the guy is dedicated to his training. What I do doubt however is that a short video of a guy punching a stone in a car is evidence of a lifetime of extensive and hard training. It's evidence that someone punches a rock and seems to have punched a rock many times before.
  17. Hayseed

    Hayseed Thread Killer

    How do you know?
    Can we have a source?
    It's not like we'd just take your word for it...Or would we!?!?!?!:eek:

    No, we wouldn't
    You seem to like to use the term "obvious" alot. What's obvious to me, is that Mr. Kawakami seems fine with living and training in obscurity, out of the public eye, or as you put it, "underground", if you are a student of his, why would you feel that he would want you to splatter his name across thread after thread at Martial Arts of all places. Bizarre.
  18. SPX

    SPX Valued Member

    Don't mean to resurrect a thread from 2 years ago, but I do want to address this comment.

    I would say that the video IS evidence. It is not, however, proof. But it is evidence that is SUGGESTIVE of a particular reality (i.e. that he has been dedicated to martial arts training throughout his lifetime).

    After all, that is how cases are built. Individual, disparate details are brought together to suggest that something is true. For instance, a video of a TKD practitioner doing a 540 kick is evidence that he has trained seriously. This may not be the case--he could just be a fast learner--but it is certainly a piece of evidence in favor of that conclusion and has to be taken into account and carefully considered rather than being flippantly dismissed.
  19. Valued Member

    Oh look, a bunch of people who've never visited Japan, can't speak the language, and have no academic credentials in any related fields acting as authorities on Japanese government and history. This is refreshing and new.

    I have to assume there is an army of hobos out there "discovering" these topics and bringing them up at the public library before the librarians shoo them away. Perhaps it's all in retaliaion for Phil Elmore.
  20. dra_uk

    dra_uk Lost in Translation


    That is all.

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