Authentication and rejection of Ninjutsu from Japan

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Silv, Jun 9, 2008.

  1. Silv

    Silv New Member

    To be honest with you (referring to Shadowhunter) I have no problem with you. I was only trying to address the larger scale issues. Nothing was aimed at you. People can practice what they like. I am totally fine with this. Anyone can obviously do what they want to do and say what they want to say.

    I am just stating the obvious from my view point. The obvious is this: As related to "authentic Ninjutsu" Bujinkan, Genbukan, Masaaki Hatsumi, Shoto Tanemura, To*****ugu Takamatsu and anyone else related to them or stemming from them don't have a leg to stand on in Japan. The only references that back them are from other members of their party or ill-educated people. There is absolutely no evidence in Japan that these people are in anyway related to "authentic" Ninjutsu. The only place that accepts these people are borders outside of Japan which is ridiculous considering they are claiming Japanese martial arts systems.

    I showed a link to the only public Ninjutsu Museum in Japan (Iga-Ryu Museum). They state on that webpage that they have scientifically analyzed ancient Ninjutsu writings. They state that ONLY Jinichi Kawakami can claim to carry on authentic Ninjutsu. I also post a link to the government website of SHIGA, JAPAN. Not a biased source obviously. On that website they show Banke Shinobinoden (Koka and Iga Ninjutsu) doing a demonstration for the government of Shiga, Japan. Hmmmmm why would the governmental office of Shiga, Japan have them doing this seminar if they are not legit????? They wouldn't. It is well-known in Japan that only Banke Shinobinoden, Jinichi Kawakami and Yasushi Kiyomoto carry on "authentic Ninjutsu." This should tell you something.

    Talking about their history. Read "A Story of Life, Fate, and Finding the Lost Art of Koka Ninjutsu in Japan." It sheds some light on the subject. It is obvious in this book that the things being written aren't just hearsay or falsehoods. This book is a well-documented account of life in Japan and "authentic" Ninjutsu training.
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2008
  2. JibranK

    JibranK Valued Member

  3. Silv

    Silv New Member

    Being listed in a book of "martial arts schools" is not the same thing as having your claims "recognized." In the above mentioned post it states these claims are "imperfect." Today the claims of Masaaki Hatsumi are seen in Japan as "funny." Otherwise, taken as a joke. I'll give you a test to do. Go around to traditional Japanese martial arts schools in Japan..............ask them about Masaaki Hatsumi and his claims to Authentic Ninjutsu. Most people won't say much. A lot of people wonder how Masaaki Hatsumi could of gotten away with "claiming" authentic Ninjutsu for so long..........simple.........he doesn't speak of "Ninjutsu" around other Japanese people (who are not his business partners) and he has been outcasted from the Japanese community. In Japan, if you do something obnoxious or outrageous they tend to ignore and outcast you. Such is the case here. Not much is said, but it is understood. If foreigners come to Japan to "play" Ninja with Masaaki Hatsumi let them. It's their choice. It's seen as nothing more than foreigners on vacation pretending to be Ninja's.

    If you delve deeply into Japanese culture you see that it is truly a "silent culture." Not much is said, but actions speak louder than words. Masaaki Hatsumi's claims are rejected in Japan. Most people have never heard his name, and the ones that have don't recognize his claims. He is basicly just ignored and the only people that pay attention to him are outsiders from other countries.
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2008
  4. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    Just as an independant but vaguely interested party, I thought it worth pointing out that pretty much everyone in Japan would assume you were joking if you said you did Ninjutsu..Banke or otherwise..

    It's not a claim that's taken with much seriousness by many at all for various reasons, but it's certainly not the case that you'll be laughed at if you say "I train with Hatsumi", or if you say "I train with the Banke Shinobiden"....Although no one would laugh at your face, you'll get the same strained reaction for both replies..

    I did see the banke shinobiden in a show about Ninja last year that was made for the release of "Shinobi" (The movie..Pretty good), but it was only random clips, and nothing in any seriousness, they also referenced Naruto...Go figure.

    Anyway...It's worth saying that any claim to be practising "real Ninjutsu" in Japan is met with a long silence...That speaks volumes.

  5. Kagete

    Kagete Banned Banned

    One last tidbit out of sheer humanity before we proceed to starve the troll to death...

    Let's see your research in the matter.

    I like big words and I cannot lie. I wish I had your ability.
  6. ShadowHunter

    ShadowHunter Living the Dream

    As Credelli says in MBaKAM, Japan's own men-in-black are taken with a pinch of wasabi. Guess its true.
  7. George Kohler

    George Kohler Valued Member

    That is not a very good source... In the 60's Hatsumi Sensei presented a talk on ninjutsu with the crown prince Akihito (the current emperor) at Gakushuuin university. There is even a picture of them both with many people present. So, by your example that means that Hatsumi Sensei is legit?
  8. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    A fair point and I have to say Silv I'm noticing a distinct double standard in your messages. Are you a student of the person you are promoting as the only authentic ninjustu practitioner?
  9. Malcolm Sheppar

    Malcolm Sheppar Valued Member

    Banke Shinobiden does openly provide consulting and support for performance and reenactment groups like Kurondo. I think if you really want to see what they do withoutthat aspect you'd probably have to see Yasushi Kiyomoto alone, or someonehe treats as a serious student. Kawakami did talks and performances for lotsof people too, but he only ever had one student.
  10. Silv

    Silv New Member

    Actors that look like power rangers running around playing "Togakure Ninpo" with Masaaki Hatsumi. Ninjutsu origins coming from other planets. This clip shows just that with Masaaki Hatsumi as the main actor (even uses the name Togakure Ninpo in the show):

    I think this sums up how Masaaki Hatsumi and Bujinkan are seen in Japan. He is after all an actor, that graduated from college with a degree in theatre. In my opinion, anyone who respects their martial art would never allow it (and actively participate) in it being put on display like this.
  11. Hayseed

    Hayseed Thread Killer

    Oh HOW DARE HE!!!!:rolleyes:

    So you mean, basically, that anyone that portrays their art in a way that you yourself don't particularly approve of, doesn't have respect for the lineages they hold?

    Protip: Being a ninja, does not mean you're in charge...In fact, quite the opposite around these parts.:p

    Learn how to laugh every now and then man, sheesh, you ninja's is serious business!:eek:
  12. southsider

    southsider Valued Member

    A headmaster should pass on not only the physical technique but the idea of respect for the school and it's history. Beyond the way appearing in something like that reflects on Hatsumi personally he allowed them to use his school's name as well. I am sure I am not the only one that feels that if that is the way he chooses to represent his school it does not appear that he treats it very seriously and how much can you really learn from someone who puts that little value in his schools name and reputation?

    You do not see any other high level masters, in any art representing themselves in such a manner.

    Mifune was a very famous actor and the highest authority in Judo at the time Ebut he did not feel the need to represent his art as a joke. even Seagal, as bad as some of his movies are, never represents Aikido that way.

    Before I saw that, controversy aside, I had always been interested in what Hatsumi was teaching and always wanted to experience the art. Not anymore.
  13. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    Yeah Seagal never represented his art that way and Soke Hatsumi never beat up his wife. I know who i would rather hold up as an example, someone who doesn't take himself too seriously or a bully who professes Buddhism but is violent to a woman.
  14. Terrior

    Terrior Valued Member

    Thank goodness for that, we already have enough :banana: like you training. Thanks for doing us a favour.

    BTW what controversy? This is not brand new footage, you do realise that don't you? I've seen a photo of him in a magazine wearing a ninja turtle t-shirt, how dare he :rolleyes:
  15. southsider

    southsider Valued Member

    I by no way meant that Seagal is some golden moral standard and there are a lot of senior members from a lot of arts that have done a much much worse then he has but they generally don't through their arts name around while they are doing it. I also did not mean to imply that Hatsumi is of low moral character only that I think that anyone appearing in that type of program is kind of a joke.


    The controversy I was referring to is the question about the history of some of the arts associated with the Bujinkan and I did not realize that this was new footage as I have never come across it before.

    I don't expect that me not wanting to train with the Bujinkan after seeing that is any sort of threat. The thing is that now I am going to tell my students and others I know about the way Hatsumi chooses to represent himself and his art. Who cares, right? The problem is that when enough people start telling others it can affect membership in the individual Bujinkan dojos.

    I am not attacking Hatsumi, I don't think it does much for anyones reputation by appearing in that type of program and am not making any comment about him beyond my own generalization. It's his school and he can do what he wants, my only point is that the other soke i have had the pleasure of training with feel that it is important to preserve the reputation of their schools. I don't see Hatsumi doing that.


  16. Hayseed

    Hayseed Thread Killer

    Well Posted

    IMO, Seagal does absolutely nothing good for the representation if Aikido with his movies. In every movie I've seen him in, sure he's serious, but in a laughable, egomaniacal, "look everyone, I swear I'm Japanese" way. When I saw that Family Guy episode, I was like "finally, someone else who can't stand his movies." Nothing to do with the MA in them, just the one dimensional characters, storylines that scream "you can see the arc, right?, Right?" and the husky voice tough guy routine.

    I wasn't aware of Mifune's MA experience, however, as an actor, he's outstanding. I've never seen him represent MA as a joke, but I have seen him play comic relief.

    Not really a fair movie comparison because Mifune didn't write, direct, and star in his own movies(More of that Seagal ego, huh?) I think if he did, between the lines one could get a better idea of him, or at least how he sees, or wants to see himself.

    And to be fair, what we in the states regard as the silliest things we've seen, is, AFAIK, par for the course in Japanese TV. BTW, wasn't that a kid's show?(Jiraya)
  17. bouli

    bouli Valued Member

  18. ruha

    ruha Valued Member

    Shiga Government

    ...have you seen this clip from their meeting?

    This answers why :)
  19. Hayseed

    Hayseed Thread Killer

  20. Terrior

    Terrior Valued Member

    ok I apologise for being rude. That is a fair enough response and everyone is free to their own opinion.
    I personally get sick and tired of people acting all high and mighty and I guess I assumed too much about you, I'm sure you can appreciate where I was coming from.

    We have different opinions on Hatsumi Sensei and after having seen him with my own eyes a few times I cant disagree with your opinion of him more.
    However, I am not here to change your mind about anything so good luck in your training.


Share This Page