Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Simon, Feb 26, 2016.
It becomes a lot harder to justify in court though, right?
Oh absolutely requires that articulation to be more substantive, but it does not inherently remove any claim of self defense
Hannibal, in Canadian law or both? UK and Canada? I've heard in some states of USA you can pretty much shoot the guy if he's on your property Thank god we don't have guns and gun nuts in UK!
I can expand further if needed, but in the majority of jurisdictions (a few doctrines aside) there is a threefold criteria that covers a defense of "self defense"
1) Perception of threat/offence (subjective with objective lens)
2) Defensive intent of reaction (subjective with objective lens)
3) Reasonable and necessary in the circumstances (objective with subjective lens)
The pros like Hannibal have covered it but the threat forcing his way in is a different scenario to what Rocks was talking about.
As I understand it you must feel that they show they have intent, means, and opportunity to pose a risk at a point in a given time.
Also I imagine wilfully ignoring a safe avenue of escape would probably be looked down on.
On top of that you have to be able to articulate why they had intent, means, and opportunity. It's no good just saying they did.
Simon I had no idea you were going through this. If there's anyway I can help to support you feel free to give me a call mate.
Hi guys, first off I want to apologise for my very late reply.
I couldn't help but notice a few comments that was basically insulting me. Kind of disappointed in that because I enjoyed this forum for months for it's apparent maturity and excellent discussions. I suppose that is the way of things so never mind. I will address a few comments before I get started.
Dean Winchester- No, I am not ignorant, I just don't take threats lightly.
Hannibal- Suppose you were trying to be funny, fair enough. Nothing further to add.
Giovanni- How did you know the guy had a knife? have you got some sort of information I didn't have from Simon's original post?
I am about to explain why I would take the action I originally posted.
Next, a bit about me, I am Soldier and have been trained heavily into this sort of thing (threat analysis, response etc). I am also a student of the USMC Combat Hunter Program, An excellent course that you guys would probably enjoy.
Simon, you wrote this in your original post-
'I go to the door and was greeted (for want of a better term) by a guy aged 30 -35, dark hair and dark stubble.
He says, "can you step outside"?
I said, "sorry, who are you"? and again he said, "step outside".'
Ok Simon, I will now try to explain what I thought to arrive to my proposed action. Using the 'rules' of the MCHP, The 'bad guy' displayed three suspect behaviours, which I managed to conceive from your information.
First, Proxemics- Guy was close. Too close. Average person has three levels of comfort, this person being a stranger, he was too close. First alarm bell.
I am aware most people are close when they bang on your door, but I always take this precaution when answering mine.
Second, Kinesics- The manner of the way he was standing. I know I was not present but the way he refused to answer your enquiry about his identity paints a good picture of the way he was carrying himself. Second alarm bell.
Third, Geography- He wanted you to step in an environment he has occupied. I know it was (probably) your garden so your property but you wouldn't know what could be waiting for you. Third alarm bell.
Three bells equals a cluster, this then demands action. You may know it as 'Destructive deduction' Simon. I then would have shut the door, arming myself. This means I have ended the conversation, and taken myself out of harm's way. If he started banging on the door, or trying to break in, I'd have arranged it for him to achieve this. So in short. I have raised my ability to defend myself and aware of my geography around me.
Just like I was taught.
You then posted
' And if he hits you first.
As instructors we hear this a lot. I'd do this, I'd do that.
Have you ever been hit, or stabbed for that matter.
I'd urge you to re-evaluate your training and ask yourself if you are really capable of doing what you say.
When it comes to the actual physical confrontation you need to understand before it starts if you are the type of person to walk away, or the type who will stand your ground.
You seem to have made the decision to stand your ground.
Can you back it up and is it worth the risk.'
I have been hit, kicked to sleep, slashed, shot at, and the rest. And I have returned the favour too. My training might not be as good as Some on here but it's got me this far. And I am always learning.
I would stand my ground. That is my home with people I love in it. It is worth the risk.
Thank you Gents.
You must do.
Think about it. You said you'd shut the door, grab a weapon, and then open the door and let him in.
"So Mr Rocks why did you let the deceased into your house?"
"I thought he posed a significant threat to me and my family"
"So Mr Rocks why did you let the deceased into your home?"
I get there's differences between locations and that someone with your training will think and act a certain way but at the end of the day it seems rather daft from a civilian self defence perspective.
Given all that training he sure came up with a **** poor plan. No way in hell you let somebody in your home. If you know they're there and decide to attack, you go out the back or a window while getting somebody to talk to them through the front (just insult them and get them real riled up), and then you blindside them with overwhelming lethal force as you creep up behind them. Like a bullet, or a baseball bat to the side of the head. ^__^
The whole explanation and break down was so esoteric . . .
Personally I just strip naked cover myself in bacon fat and run outside shouting "dinner is on me baby!".
That would work against probably anyone but people like me. I always have a spare jar of Crisco laying around, and I would be making the dessert.
E.E that's scary I'm so happy I live in a gated community with 24/7 security and a gated entrance for my house. I would of probably just closed the door and called my older brother don't know why.
Can I Sig this? I really want to Sig this
Go for it.
No I wasn't - I was pointing out how utterly stupid your suggestion/strategy was
“Not until you tell me who you are and what you want, I’m not” would have been my answer though to be honest at this point it has as much to do with basic courtesy and etiquette than self-defense considerations.
Guy knocks on MY door, ignores my question and insists on me “stepping outside” without explanation? Sure pal, let me fetch you some tea and cookies first. After the knife is pulled, it’s pretty straightforward SD stuff. Retreat if possible, shut the door and alert the police as you did. Perfectly handled.
Agreed. Fighting really is the very last resort, and the consequences of it are unpredictable and often horrible. Problem dealt with and no blood spilled = WIN
In the house, there is a case to be made. I don't know the exact wording, but there is a clause in our self defense laws that has a rather prosaic way of saying that you are allowed to take out an intruder in your house if he is there unexpected and uninvited and realistically a threat to you or your family.
And I can see the reasoning behind this. If you are in your house and your kids in a separate part (bedrooms for example) and a burglar is creeping up the stairs, in the dark, retreating further is not an option. If at that point you hit him in the head with a frying pan, you should be in the clear by default because he forced you to react at a point where you had no other choice that would remove the threat.
Also, while I am generally against the idea of everybody carrying around guns, I think everybody should at least have the right to keep a shotgun by their bed, and be legally protected when shooting a credible threat inside the house. Whoever sets up the situation where it is them or the other guy, is the one responsible to the outcome of the situation, whatever that may be.
Once upon a time, my husband and a friend had trailered a boat up North a few states away. On one of my husband's check in calls he said they would be home around 10:00 the next morning. I went to bed that nite knowing I was alone with the dog. Warm nite and I'm asleep on my back, uncovered. My husband comes home around 2AM after driving straight thru. The dog knew him so he didn't alert me. I'm semi conscience asleep now, probably disturbed by movement in the house but I'm not really awake. My Stupid husband, who should have known better comes into the bedroom and grabs my left ankle without say anything. I'm not sure of my movements but my right foot strongly connected with his upper chest and throws him back into the dresser. I come fully awake to the sound of things from the dresser top crashing to the floor, a barking dog and my husband hollering something not so nice. Since then he won't come anywhere near me while I'm sleeping. He'll talk to me from a safe distance until I wake.
John Titchen approached me yesterday in regard to a friend of his who runs The Conflict Manager Magazine.
John had told his friend of this story saying it may be of interest to him.
I've since spoken to him and sent him the story and some of your replies.
I should add at this point he has my permission to use the story (with my editorial control), but not to quote any of your replies.
Going back through the thread lead me to Hannibal's question below.
Some of you will be familiar with Copper's Colour Coding, which is a situational awareness level breakdown.
Cooper’s colors: A simple system for situational awareness
In my first post I explain why I was in code white and that has now changed.
I am after a hard day's work often to be found in my dad's chair talking to you riff raff and in code white. If however there is a knock at the door I do now change to code yellow.
No need for any unnecessary worry, or fear it may be another knife attack, but just a realisation that I need to me more conscious.
I walk to the door slower and tell myself that if anything untoward was present I would retreat a few steps to give myself a second's worth of thinking time.
No heightened state of awareness, as that would take me to code orange, and as there is no threat there is no need to move from yellow.
Code yellow is how you cross the road.
You look both ways, evaluate the speed of the traffic and make your move.
No worry or panic, just a brief mental risk assessment and off you go.
If a car come a little to fast, then it's code orange and possibly code red and you run rather than walk.
Once on the other side it's back to yellow.
This is now my approach when answering the door.
Outside of the house it's business as usual.
I have always done checks when I approach the car, in rest rooms I use cubicles rather than urinals and that is just practising what I preach, rather than through fear.
Happy to answer any other questions.
It's worth having a read through to see if you can make changes to how you would deal with a situation and what your own awareness levels are like.
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