As a TS woman do I stand a chance against men?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Maryreade1234, Aug 14, 2019.

  1. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Skin colour doesn't change physical strength, there's more genetic diversity amoungst africans, then there is between Europeans and Africans.

    How to Argue with a Racist by Adam Rutherford review – how genetics can combat prejudice

    This is an excellent book:

    "
    Skin colour may be the most obvious difference between people but it has little to do with the total amount of similarity or difference between individuals and between populations. If we accept that people are born with different innate capabilities and potential, then how these abilities cluster within and between populations has more to do with history and culture than DNA and biology. Studies reveal that genetic differences between populations do not account for differences in academic, intellectual, musical or sporting performance between those populations.

    So-called racial differences are literally just skin deep: genetics and human evolutionary history do not support the traditional or colloquial concepts of race. As a result, Rutherford argues, we are prone to say “race doesn’t exist”, or “race is just a social construct”. However, race does exist precisely because it is a social construct, and racism is real because people enact it. One has to admire his desire to challenge Jonathan Swift’s dictum: “Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired.”

    "
     
  2. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Caster Semenya - Wikipedia

    Semenya was "assigned female at birth, raised as a girl and identifies as a woman"[9] but has XY chromosomes and exceptionally high testosterone levels ("hyperandrogenism") due to a disorder of sex development.[10][11] Following her victory at the 2009 World Championships, it was announced that she had been subjected to sex testing.[5] She was withdrawn from international competition until 6 July 2010 when the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) cleared her to return.[12][13] In 2019, new IAAF rules came into force preventing women such as Semenya from participating in 400m, 800m, and 1500m events unless they take medication to lower their testosterone levels.


    The references are in the wiki.

    "
    The IAAF then scrapped the hyperandrogenism rules and in April 2018 announced new guidelines for women with “differences of sex development,” or DSD. The DSD regulations apply to female athletes—athletes like Semenya who “are born as women, reared and socialized as women, who have been legally recognized as women for their entire lives,” her lawyers note—with 46,XY DSD who experience a “material androgenizing effect.” Many different conditions fall within the 46,XY DSD umbrella, depending on the interaction of multiple genes, hormones, and hormone receptors. These conditions share the presence of one X chromosome and one Y chromosome in each cell, but the presentation of genitalia and sex organs differs, as well as production of and receptivity to testosterone.
    "
    The Decadelong Humiliation of Runner Caster Semenya
     
  3. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    That is exactly why I would argue against phenotypes as a method of dividing classes of athletes.

    Genetic diversity of Africans does not change the fact that there is a strong correlation between the phenotype of skin colour and advantageous haplogroup inheritance for certain events.
     
  4. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Nowhere does that state that Senemya is genetically male.

    WHO | Gender and Genetics
     
  5. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    "
    Studies reveal that genetic differences between populations do not account for differences in..... sporting performance between those populations."

    Your post is the opposite of my quote, am I misreading you, or am I missing something?

    The phenotype of sex, is very different to the phenotype of skin colour.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2020
  6. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    XY means genetically male, but due to her condition, her phenotype is female, her gender is female.

    Are you saying an XY genotype isn't genetically male?
    Triton Lysenko may agree, I don't think many others will.
     
  7. Unreal Combat

    Unreal Combat Valued Member

    Tell that to Nong Rose, lol.
     
  8. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Race and sports - Wikipedia

    The correlation between phenotype and performance is not as strong as male/female, but it is still there.
     
  9. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Sorry, I quoted the wrong bit from the WHO site...
    WHO | Gender and Genetics
     
  10. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I think the only thing we can be certain about is that it is a tricky subject full of grey areas and no easy answers that will satisfy or be considerate to everyone.
    Wouldn't want to be caught in the middle of it try and work out what's best.
     
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  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Ok, I see the confusion,
    she has the genetics usually associated with males, her genetics are not the ones usually associated with female, her phenotype is female, her gender is female, but genetically, she is not female, does that make more sense?

    Good primer:
    Differences in sex development
     
  12. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I'm going to bow out now, I've reached the limited of my ability and interest.

    I was surprised DH has started arguing in favour of race based differences though!
     
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    There is no such thing as "genetic sex", as far as I can find out.

    There is chromosomal sex, gonadal sex, and phenotype sex. There is no single determining factor of male/female.
     
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Chromosomal sex then.

    Although genetics is the study of chromosomes, so that's really just semantics.

    Anyway let's get back to why you think some races are superior?
     
  15. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    That is a very unfair characterisation of what I wrote.

    The articles I linked to specifically gave examples that refute a race-based differentiation (obviously, as "race" is a meaningless term, biologically speaking), but there is a correlation between skin colour and haplogroup inheritance. It is not a controversial statement to point out that there is a strong correlation between athletic performance and haplogroup inheritance in particular events.

    NPR Choice page

    The argument was framed against using phenotype differentiation, not as an argument for it. That's your job!
     
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  16. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    That's a great use of False equivalency, women who say that their is a strength advantage in going through puberty as a male before transitioning to be female, are not the same as white supremacists.

    JK Rowling isn't David Duke.

    I really am bowing out now, I've got work to do, with a long way to go, and a short time to get there.
     
  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    That's a great use of a straw man argument.

    No, to some people on Twitter she's a lot worse!

    Same!
     
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  18. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Thanks for the debate!
     
    David Harrison likes this.
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Listening to that Radio 4 programme and it's quite depressing/enlightening to find out that genetics has a 40/50% effect on sport performance.
    Think it basically shows that the notion of a "fair" sporting competition has never existed and never will.
    As they say..."sport is not fair". :(
     
    Dead_pool likes this.
  20. IronMaiden1991

    IronMaiden1991 Active Member

    You mean the competitor who has been quoted as saying they haven't been on hormones for a while to increase their sporting performance? That's not the same thing as what I'm talking about and I don't condone that approach.
     

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