Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Dead_pool, Mar 7, 2023.
Well worth a watch
Transphobia is also on a severe rise too with Michael Knowles now calling for the eradication of "transgenderism" and transpeople; it's right-wing propagandists taking big money at home and from foreign states for their grift to capitalize on and stoke the fear and hatred of the populace. They complain about the "woke" and label it "cultural Marxism" which is actually a neo-Nazi dogwhistle.
Racially: you now have Scott Adams openly endorsing racial segregation with Elon Musk (whose wealth was inherited from exploits in apartheid South Africa) supporting him because apparently the black population "can't be helped".
There are multiple fronts of this fight, including antisemitism, transphobia, and racism.
Good on Arnold Schwarzenegger for making this video.
"The war against yourself" -he said it well; this is exactly what the study of Budō is all about too.
And sadly it's not confined to the right wing either. Had many arguments, with people on the TERFy side of things, who otherwise are very progressive and liberal in attitude, that transgender people aren't the risk and danger they have been lead to believe.
But still they're scared of transgender women (let's face it they don't care about transgender men) pretending to be women in order to gain access to female only spaces in order to assault women.
They can't see that engendering fear of the "other" is from the right wing play book. A play that's been used time and again, just with varying targets.
There are times women themselves were the target of right wing "othering" when they want the vote or reproductive rights or an education.
It baffles my mind some women can't see that transgender people are being used the same way.
Something to note....blaming left wing or right wing...or blaming Democrat or Republican for all the problems...is pretty much doing exactly what he is saying not to do.... that to is based on hate.
Not that I mentioned Republican or Democrat specifically, I'd submit to you that you're drawing a false equivalency in trying to assert that I'm preaching "hate" in pointing out that anti-trans and anti-drag laws that right-wing politicians are pushing for and are actually passing. Also strange of you to strawman it to a nebulous "blaming them for all the problems".
It's almost like trying to claim that African-Americans pointing out the history of their oppression are being hateful or racist for doing so, or like Trump saying that there are "very fine people on both sides" after Charlottesville. Also what political movement was behind the January 6 attack on the Capitol again? The list goes on and on.
I reject your framing of what I said as being hateful, and I think it's disingenuous, suspicious, and bizarre.
I think you missed the spirit of what Arnold was talking about, and if you really cared about the suffering of others or about the racism and transphobia that some leftists can exhibit, you would've said something structured in a way that was closer to what Smitfire was saying.
On the other hand, Smitfire raises a great point - TERFism is a serious issue, and over the past half-year I've dealt three times with ciswomen who enter queer spaces like they own them and treat transpeople in them with hostility; someone from one of these groups last fall even sexually assaulted two other people who were at the event.
Actually had not read your post at all until now, and your examples, accusations and association are more than a little bit off the mark...but it is a tactic used on the web in forums to redirect an post to something I had not said in order to give you control and put me in a position to be arguing something I never said in the first place....keep me off balance if you will..... thereby allowing. you to continue the silliness, but it is a nice attempt to bring in examples that will illicit an emotional response so you could redirect the discussion to whatever your agenda happens to be here...it just did't illicit one in me. But I do find it interesting that you took it so personally.....
As for suspicious, nice word, but why..... suspicion because I am not into blaming a certain group for all the problems in the world..... as for bizarre...not at all...but again, nice word to through in to redirect the post,.... and you will REALLY need to explain to me why and 18 minute video that is blaming one group for all the issues, is not hate...and for that matter how it is relevant to anything said in the Arnold video...I mean beyond you possible political agenda.
but with that....the only thing I have left to say to you here is ...... oh...you want an argument...your want room 12A, Just along the corridor.
I will mention Republican or Democrat. The reality in America at least is that there IS a significant contingent of Racism/Homophobia/ Transphobia/ Sexism that is FAR more powerful and predominant in the current MAGA wing of the Republican party. That is just a fact. You don't see laws suppressing education of the history of racism being passed by Democrats. Trans rights, women's rights, GLBT+ rights are all currently under assault by Republicans right here and now. Calling it out for what it is backed up by just looking at current statements and laws made by leaders in the right.
If non MAGA extremist Republicans don't like getting lumped in with them, it is well past time they speak up against the controlling force in their party.
Equating callling out this to being the same thing is just inaccurate. False Equivalency.
I have long been a third party Independent moderate. But the current situation is what it is. There are right wing Republicans speaking out against it, but they are way too few. (Lincoln Project comes to mind.)
They are a danger and a threat to equal rights and Democracy itself. (Because this same group is largely the same group that is pro-Russian invasion of Ukraine. AND pro-insurrectionism and violent overthrow of American Democracy. Witness January 6th and how many of these same MAGA republicans support the insurrectionists.
Good for Schwarzenegger for calling things out repeatedly! He is spot on, again. He reminds me why I voted for him twice for Governator. Yeah, I voted for him as a Republican. He was disappointing in that role. But at least he reminds me why I thought he would be good.
aaradia gets it. All too often people are quick to say "both sides" when the data is out there for us all to see, but they're not interested in facts more than they are a narrative of equivocacy (and are probably a victim of Russian propaganda... I wonder indeed how they feel about our support for Ukraine...)
I also find it interesting that Xue is trying to gaslight me (and now aaradia) into thinking that we're being hysterical; note that while I talked about specific issues in my questioning of Xue, they only responded by talking about and attacking me in particular and trying to dismiss me as being emotional. Again, I'm not sure how they expect to be taken seriously now.
Also, what did these kinds of folk used to say? "Facts don't care about your feelings?" Interesting how that turns around.
Mod Note: This is a heated topic. I sort of get a spidey sense after all my years of moderating. So, I am going hopefully jump in early to remind everyone on difficult topics like this to be careful to attack the subject and not any poster. And to breathe deep and look over your post to make sure it follows TOS before hitting send. No one has needed this yet. But I just can see it going that way very quickly. Carry on
I can see why women are scared of men, and I can see why some women are scared of trans women who were born as men, the cases of Isla Bryson and Katie Dolatowski has proven that this concern isnt baseless, just as the cases in America of transwomen being jailed in male prisons can also be inappropriate. NYC Settles Suit Filed on Behalf of Transgender Woman Raped While Held in All-Male Jail on Rikers Island | New York Law Journal.
Trans rights are a very real thing, but you also have to respect cis female safe spaces as well. Otherwise the right wing will explote the situation for their own ends, and we all know how that ends.
No one said we didn't need to respect cis-female safe spaces so I'm not sure why you even said this.
One of the important things is how these conversations are framed; my example above was of cis-women walking into a space (time and again) that is supposed to be safe for LGBTQ+ folk and then being openly hostile to transpeople in that space that is supposed to include them and in one case committing sexual assault.
Also, honestly, what you said is pretty much like pointing to two brown people who've raped women and then say that "you can see why some women are scared of" brown people, which is kinda just racist.
And yes, I've been in a situation where someone at a swing dance meetup told a mutual friend that they had assumed that I was the mutual's rapist because I was brown and that "well you know that's what they do right?". The mutual thankfully told her to hit the road.
So yeah, gross, dude
P.S. What you said brought my mind to J.K. Rowling so here
Is J.K. Rowling transphobic? Let’s let her speak for herself.
Also she wrote a book under a pseudonym inspired by the person who pioneered gay conversion therapy in which she self-inserts as the main character and the antagonist is a cross-dressing make serial killer.
When you and J.K. Rowling point to a transwoman here or there committing sexual assault, I feel I have to remind you again that ciswomen rape other women too. Or maybe you weren't aware of this, I don't know.
I also have to point out the effect that people like this have on the discourse and to again bring some perspective because in 2022, 32 transpeople were killed in the US.
Report: At least 32 transgender people killed in US in 2022
"Transgender people of color account for 81% of known victims this year, and 59% were Black. Trans women are disproportionately represented, as they have been in years past, also comprising 81% of the deaths recorded at the time of publication.
The Human Rights Campaign has documented at least 302 violent deaths of transgender and gender-nonconforming people since the LGBTQ advocacy organization began tracking such fatalities in 2013 — the same year the FBI began tracking hate crimes against transgender people."
Or here: 2021 on pace to be deadliest yet for trans and gender non-conforming Americans
"According to the 19th, a non-profit that reports on gender, politics and policy, LGBTQ advocates say a record number of Republican-sponsored state bills targeting trans children have increased transphobia and violence.
Killings of trans people are often underreported, in part because law enforcement and media reports tend to “deadname” and misgender victims, according to ProPublica."
And we haven't even gotten into trans suicide yet.
I'll post properly in the morning.
But yes I agree, trans rights are a very real thing,
As are cis women's rights, and in the very few places these two elements don't agree,(prisons for example) we should listen to both groups, and make sure we come up with practical solutions that respect both groups.
Otherwise the more hateful people will use that scisim, for their own ends.
I still don't get this though
You admit that transwomen are raped when they're put into male prisons, and ciswomen rape women in prisons all the time as well, but you want to set up a frame that hinges on the potential of a transwoman possibly raping a ciswoman in prison, again despite the fact that ciswomen again do it to each other in prison all the time and the very real dangers that exists for transwomen in male prisons?
I submit to you the the question of transwomen in women's prison is inauthentic.
All you're doing by stopping transwomen from entering a space is you force them to be sexually harassed for sure when you put them in the other space; you also are entertaining the notion of being more concerned about the potential harm to cis women than the real harm done to transwomen.
Also rape is already illegal. What do we gain from legislating an identity? That's a big human rights no-no, and if we start legislating based on potential harm and identity, then men should not be allowed on university campuses because most of the rape committed on university campuses are committed by men. Would you also be so inclined to support that discussion as well?
This isn't always a simple binary choice,
There are reasons that jail's are single sex, trans men and trans women do complicate the situation. If there wasn't good practical reasons for single sex places, then we should just have mixed sex prisons, which we don't.
Because systemically is exposes more people to the chance of abuse. Arguing that a level of abuse already exists, isn't an good reason to increase the level of risk.
That's a false dichotomy, in both instances there are potential harms, and if it happens it's a real harm. You have to look at the trans prisoners on a case by case basis, a convicted rapist who transitioned after conviction, who has never been on hormones and doesn't wish surgery, is very different to someone on remand for a white colour crime, who transitioned 10 years ago, and is post op. And yes men commit 100% of the rapes at universities (rape is legally defined this way in UK law) so having female only campuses should be fine if the demand exists.
Your argument is a great example if why there is pushback in feminist circles.
"Harm done to females is only potential harms
Harm done to trans people is real harms"
They are both real harms. And the current system doesn't work to protect everyone like it should do.
We can and should do better.
Do you also think prison officers born male should not be allowed in women's prisons? Women prisoners are far more likely to face harassment, abuse and sexual assault from prison officers than the 17 trans women in women's prisons in England and Wales.
What about the harm done to the 90% of trans women prisoners who are in men's prisons? As of 2020, sexual assault perpetrated by trans women in women's prisons averaged about once every two years, while the incidence of trans women being sexually assaulted in men's prisons averaged once per month.
Seems to me that men, women, and non-binary alike should be protected from sexual assault in prison. You appear to be arguing that being the victim of sexual assault isn't so bad if the perpetrator doesn't have a penis, or if the victim were born male.
People like Michael Knowles are the vanguard, payed to push the Overton window so that politicians can adopt extreme positions under the cover of reasonable compromise.
Billionaires fund wedge issue propaganda because conservative economic policy is increasingly unpopular. They need to stoke the culture war, because if they don't they will eventually see the public voting for politicians who are serious about redistribution of wealth.
Trans panic, red scare, immigrant boogeymen... gotta keep people scared enough to vote against their own self interest.
I'm glad I'm not in a position to have to work out how to reconcile all of the competing (to a degree) requirements of women, trans people, prisons, etc.
It's not a simple situation.
At all times I try to work from behind "the veil of ignorance" and be fair to all involved and that, generally, removing the rights of others isn't the way to get progress.
I understand, for women, it can be disconcerting to see someone they identify as a "man" in a space they feel should be a safe place for women.
Even though they are (probably) more likely to be killed by a cow than someone who's transgender just looking for somewhere to have a piddle and get on with their lives.
Long is the list of groups that the people in power have tried to weaponise through fear.
Women, the lower classes, foreigners, the loony left, the liberal elite, the "woke" crowd, gay people, different races, people of "lower intelligence", vegans, "tree huggers", eco-terrorists, unions, people striking for better conditions, teachers, etc etc.
These days they seem very vexed about drag queens, not being able to batter kids into compliance and how this generation is such a weak and weedy bunch of snowflakes (while simultaneously losing their minds over vegan sausage rolls) that all of western civilisation (the pinnacle of civilisation!) is going to hell in a handcart.
I think that data should drive policy for the most part, especially in areas such as the safety of prisoners.
Turning a blind eye to a demographic being 10 times more likely to be sexually assaulted in order to make transphobes feel better doesn't sound like good policy to me.
Separate names with a comma.