Arnis Kali ....??????????

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by Buddroux, Jan 19, 2004.

  1. Crucible

    Crucible Valued Member

    I think your link's dead Krys. Could you cut and paste it your article? Actually I think Don Diego has my favorite theory about the origin of FMA, maybe he could cut and paste it from pinoymma.com .
     
  2. Crucible

    Crucible Valued Member

     
  3. Diego_Vega

    Diego_Vega Frustrated pacifist

    Okay. Ask and you shall receive....

    I'm actually glad that we got this thread. I've been doing my own research into the origins of kali and I've been holding things back for the sake of political and nationalistic expediency. Well, the truth has to come out some time and now is as good as any other time so?. Kali, what we had thought of as the 'Filipino Martial Arts' was not invented in Spain, as alleged by that noted historian Vin Diesel. But was in fact invented in Canada. Yes, Canada.

    It isn't as simple as going back a few hundred years in history to read about European colonization, in fact it goes back much further than that to the European colonization of North America 100,018 years ago, Tuesday morning. Basically it all starts with the Neanderthals. A group of Neanderthals from northern Europe was hunting sabre tooth hippopotamus when they suddenly found themselves trapped on an ice berg where the animals had hidden themselves. The ice-berg floated across the Atlantic and eventually wound up in Canada. In the months that it took to make it to Canada, the Neanderthals killed and ate the sabre tooth hippos as their food source. They also discovered that the sabre teeth were extremely handy as knives. Now the footwork for Neanderthal knife fighting is a bit different from todays methods in that they tended to be more circular, with the feet sliding rather than being picked up. They were on an iceberg! They didn't want to slip off into the freezing North Atlantic. Besides the Neanderthals didn't have any body fat like we do and they would sink to the bottom. (If they weren't eaten by sabre tooth trout first!) Also, it was more of a thrusting approach as they found that the rounded shape of the sabre tooth wasn't much good for slashing.

    Once they arrived in Canada, they found a clean and orderly land of trees and water that was mostly uninhabited. But there were inhabitants there. Today's Canadians are not the descendents of the Neanderthals. In fact, there are no pure Neanderthals left in the world. What happened was what happened everywhere else in the world. The newcomers, mostly male Neanderthals, met and mated with the locals already in Canada, the Sasquatch (sometimes called Bigfoot, for whom the Canadian province of Saskwatchewan was named. Chewy from Star Wars was a sasquatch.). You can see this lineage back to the Neanderthal-Sasquatch hybrids (for brevity's sake, I'll just refer to them as Canadians from now on) in all modern Canadians with their flattened skulls, heavy brow ridges, excessive body hair and disproportionately large shoe sizes. Anybody who's ever been to Canada can tell you that there are only three places worth living in: the great lakes area (lots of fertile land, water and geographic proximity to the U.S).; the arctic (unlimited snow, and 24 hours of sunlight from June to August); and the west coast ( quality of life, relaxed and laid back.). These three areas produced distinctly different Neanderthal-Sasquatch hybrid martial arts. In the great lakes area, there is as much water as there is land. You can't swing a dead sabre-tooth monkey without splashing someone. Because of this they had to develop a fighting art that was at home in the water as it was on the land, hence the Canadians came up with what Vin Diesel referred to as an 'ambidextrous' fighting. For training they would play combat sports that would later be known as hockey and lacross. The arctic Canadians developed a much more blade oriented art as they used the sabre teeth from the sabre tooth whales and giant walruses they used as skis and on their sleds as their primary fighting weapon. The moves that you see today in free-style skiing were originally used by Arctic Canadians to kick and slash at their opponents with the sabre teeth tethered to their feet. Finally, the Canadians who settled on the west coast found a land full of giant trees. That's why there martial art evolved around the use of giant redwoods as staff. This would be like our modern version of tapado. Now the argument may arise, how come Canadians? Maybe the ancestors of modern day Americans were the inventers of kali, arnis and escrima. Well, I think you'll notice that the Americans are more into projectile weapons, rather than mano y mano weapons arts. Look at their martial games: baseball, football and basketball all revolved around the throwing and chasing after of little balls.

    How did it get to the Philippines? This is where the Spanish come in and why the mistaken belief that the Spanish invented kali came from. Remember that the Spanish were here as part of the China, Philippines, Mexico galleon trade route. Five hundred years back, February, a group of Canadians obviously got fed up with the cold, lack of sunlight and bad records of Canadian based hockey teams and decided to take a winter vacation. Hence they smuggled onto a galleon and found themselves in the Philippines. You find many legends about the origins of various kali styles coming from blind princesses. Is it so inconceivable to see how a naïve and protected Filipina princess could go blind upon seeing a Neanderthal-Sasquatch hybrid for the first time. 'Arnis' is actually a corruption of the Canadian word 'fairness,' as in "we're Canadian eh, we got to do this with some fairness." A local asked how it was spelled, what was the first letter, and the Canadian, not sure of what he heard, said, "eh" Thus "arnis." Kali is a term used more commonly by Canadian illegal immigrants in California, which used to be part of Mexico.

    BTW, biro lang ha! (Just kidding!)
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2004
  4. Crucible

    Crucible Valued Member

    Thats why I ran out and got the canadian opinion :D !
    :D , Thanks Diego!
    I always thought Kali was a derivitive of Kali-fornia.....


    :confused: you mean its not true!!?
     
  5. Bayani

    Bayani Valued Member

    I'm actually glad that we got this thread. I've been doing my own research into the origins of kali and I've been holding things back for the sake of political and nationalistic expediency. Well, the truth has to come out some time and now is as good as any other time so?. Kali, what we had thought of as the 'Filipino Martial Arts' was not invented in Spain, as alleged by that noted historian Vin Diesel. But was in fact invented in Canada. Yes, Canada


    "noted Historian".. Classic! :D :D :D .
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2004
  6. Esgrimador

    Esgrimador New Member

    "Kali" is not an historical term for FMA.

    Mark Wiley pointed this out quite a while back, in his book, Filipino Martial Culture.

    This has also been noted by Romy Macapagal, the archivist for the Kalis Ilustrisimo system, in this article at Realfighting.com:

    About the term "Kali"

    The word "kali" did not come about until about 20 years or so ago and seems to have been coined somewhere, sometime by Filipinos living in the USA. I have personally conducted a search for the word "kali" amongst old people of the major tribes and, except for "kalis" which means sword and "kali" in Ilocano, which means "a hole in the ground"; there is no other word or cognate of "kali".

    Ilustrisimo used "kali" on the insistence of Mr. Leo Gaje who had visited with Tatang and also by an American anthropologist specializing in hoplology (which is a study of handheld, non-missile weapons), who seemed to have picked it up from Dan Inosanto's book. When I joined Tatang, "Kali Ilustrisimo" had been registered for about two or three years. Tony Diego (the present head of the Ilustrisimo system) and I, after the research mentioned, decided that "Kalis" is the more appropriate word because it means "sword" and would then mean the "Sword of Ilustrisimo." The name has not been formally registered except on a website but we had decided on this even when Tatang was still active and alive.


    Also interesting is the fact that the alleged Spanish influence on FMA may be more profound than many practitioners think, at least in regards to particular FMA systems. Macapagal stated:

    On the origins of Kalis Ilustrisimo

    The Ilustrisimo system is very strongly influenced by Spanish cut-and-thrust fencing. It would be the closest to what is considered martial fencing in most of Europe but which is banned today. This is the main reason why the FMAs were variously called escrima, arnis, garrote, etc. The Spaniards occupied the Philippines for about 400 years.

    The influence of Europe
    Spain Christianized most of the Philippines and used the Macabebes from Pampanga and Cebuano's against other Muslims in Mindanao. Spaniards (and other European mercenaries) were cut and thrust soldiers, they used cutlasses (among other weapons); friars too were famous for their fencing skills. We Filipinos were greatly influenced by Spanish and European fencing styles, 40% of Illustrisimo is European derived.


    The entire article can be found here:

    http://www.realfighting.com/issue7/romyframe.html

    Best Regards,

    Esgrimador
     
  7. Bayani

    Bayani Valued Member

    The key word is "Influence" and not originate or brought to the Philipines. The word Espada Y Daga itself meaning sword and dagger is Spanish but the moves and application are unique to FMA not common to weastern or European Fencing. As for Kali being spearheaded by Tuhon Leo Gaje, it is his view that if we as Filipinos are to go back into our indeginous roots and in this case the Filipino fighting arts then so should be the terminologies that through time has lost it's origin and Pilipino translations. Hard to find are the original terms of our art but this may fall to the loss or lack of writen History.

    Why Kali? There were several logical reasons he mentioned , Ka is a very common pre-fix of our tagalog language and this to me seems the most logical and closest reason that I can relate to the use of kali as a blanket statement in my eyes. Personally I like to use Kali for it's relation to Kalis a type of blade hence the heavy concentration of relating everything I do in my Filipino Fighting art to the use or presence of the blade even in emtyhanded fighting. Back to Tuhon's preferrence to switching to Kali Instead of Arnis, Arnes, Arnis de Mano (Spanish) Eskrima , Esgrima...get his point?

    Once again, not being a Historian, I look into the essence of the word that relates to the meat of what I am training, that is more than enough for me.
     
  8. Esgrimador

    Esgrimador New Member

    Would you care to elaborate on the above?

    Considering that the arts we refer to as eskrima, arnis, etc., went through a great deal of development during the Spanish occupation of 1565-1898, what's so wrong with keeping the original combination of native and Spanish-derived terms that were apparently coined by the old eskrimadors themselves?
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2004
  9. Bayani

    Bayani Valued Member

    I would love to but we're limited here in cyber space. ONE of the differences is the weaving sinawali pattern using the Espada y Daga.....nuff said. I fence on the side and have met with European fencers and exchanged info on this and we agreed the use of sinawali with espada y daga is a difference. There are also some take downs and empty hands locks that use the "Uno-dos" (heheh for my SME brothers in the art )

    As for terminologies? to each his own. Nothing wrong with sticking to Arnis or eskrima, whatever works for you. Being Pilipino and one who enjoys finding indigenous links and once again in my case the link for me being the blade and using kalis and one of my instructors being Leo Gaje then Kali it is for me. The other systems I teach also mostly use spanish terminologies and if It comes from that system and I am teaching it , then that is the term I will pass on in spanish with the "Bisaya" accent and all .
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2004
  10. Esgrimador

    Esgrimador New Member

    I would concur that sinawalli doesn't look like anything from Europe that I'm personally familiar with, but who are these "European fencers" you speak of? Are they familiar with historical swordfighting methods--i.e., 16th century styles, like that of Achille Marozzo? I mention Marozzo simply because there are no surviving Spanish treatises on military cut-and-thrust swordplay from the 16th century. However, Marozzo's Bolognese school, which had both civilian and military application, was probably similar to contemporary Spanish styles. I would even venture that the Bolognese school's spada e pugnale (sword-and-dagger) was likely pretty close to what was being done in Spain at that same time.

    And FWIW, while there are obviously differences, there are also noteworthy similarities between FMA and Western swordplay (for example, the redonda and umbrella/rooftop block, both of which have parallels in historical European systems). This could be either the result of parallel evolution, or a Spanish influence, as mentioned by Macapagal and others. Blade cultures that come into contact with one another often exchange ideas. For example, the Ming Chinese incorporated Japanese kenjutsu techniques into their own swordplay, during the 16th century. Over in Europe, the Italians adopted the German two-handed sword or zweihander (which they referred to as the spada da due mani or spadone), and in turn, the Germans adopted the Italian single-handed cut-and-thrust sword (spada), and called it the rappier or rappir.

    So, in other words, the possibility of a distinct Spanish influence on FMA shouldn't really come as a surprise.

    Fair enough. :)
     
  11. Bayani

    Bayani Valued Member

    I'm a FMA practitioner and not a fencer but I will ask these men about the names you mentioned when I get a chance to see them again. They are not instructors but have been fencers for quite some time and are quite adept. And like we agree , sinawali is not common to fencing, . I fence to understand what I do better and to keep my form true. So much to do and so little time to do it so I spend most of it trying to perfect one thing.
    Ditto on the similarities and differences and everyone borrowing from each other. The Philippines is a major trade route. Nice to see there are otehr all over who have the same love for weaponry and combative arts :)
     
  12. Esgrimador

    Esgrimador New Member

    Thanks. I'm simply curious as to whether the folks in question train in modern sport fencing, historical fencing, or a combination of the two.

    Definitely in agreement there.

    I totally sympathize, bro.


    Indeed.

    And I would have to say that the Philippines is one of the most fascinating places in the history of fighting arts in general--it was/is a true "martial arts crossroads".

    The feeling is mutual! :)
     
  13. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    yes. i am familiar with the medieval and renessance fencing and the schools that taught them. there are no equivalents to the siniwali.

    if there are similarities in movements, at frozen frames, maybe that's because the human body is limited in it's movements. one thing is certain arnis/escrima/kali developes a certain type of mind set, it developes "flow", it developes overkill (as tatang often says and is repeated by mang romy: "basta makataga! tapos taga ka lang ng taga" translated: "for as long as you can slash. and keep on slashing").
     
  14. Esgrimador

    Esgrimador New Member

    Hi Shootodog,

    Do you have a particular focus, in regards to the historical European arts? Spanish? Italian? German?

    Indeed, I think we have established that. :)

    Actually, there are similarities which go beyond "frozen frames", and that could be due to the "parallel evolution" I mentioned (or, as you put it, "the human body is limited in it's movements").

    On the other hand, those similarities could be reflective of a distinct outside influence.

    Significantly, in at least certain specific FMA styles, a distinct Spanish influence is noted. Romy Macapagal states that a full "40% of Illustrisimo is European derived"--and that's not a negligible percentage.

    And as I mentioned above, Mr. Macapagal is not the only FMA practitioner to note the Spanish influence. The following site has two excellent articles--"The Origins of Eskrima" by Dr. Ned Nepangue, and "New Theories on the Origins of Eskrima" by Celestino Macachor:

    http://cebueskrima.s5.com/custom2.html

    Check those essays out.

    Now, one thing I want to make clear--I'm am NOT saying that FMA comes from Spain. I agree with what Nepangue said:

    "It [FMA] is basically a product of Filipino creativity and no doubt whatsoever, it is very Filipino."

    However, I'm still willing to acknowledge a Spanish influence (and "influence" is the "key word", as Bayani said).

    Best Regards,

    Esgrimador
     
  15. Crucible

    Crucible Valued Member

    Yes it does seem to be distinct in Ilustrismo, anybody know what are other specific FMA styles in which a distinct Spanish influence is noted?


    Esgrimador, have you experianced/observed Ilustrisimo? What are your thoughts on it?

    Tsiao! :D (tagalog spelling of Ciao!)
     
  16. krys

    krys Valued Member

    Cinco Terros arnis, at least the cinco style I practice. The main fighting stance is clearly fencing looking.
     
  17. Crucible

    Crucible Valued Member

    Krys, where in the Philippines does your cinco teros come from? Would you be willing to share what the five angles in your form of cinco teros are? Have you seen other cinco teros?
     
  18. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Hehehehe.

    You forgot to mention that the Neanderthal's were in fact from the Danino Tribe and they had settle in Ontario which at this time in history was more commonly known as the Village of Santo.
     
  19. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    i don't get it danino village of santo? danino...ah :bang: :bang: :bang:

    hahahaha!
     
  20. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Ah, you see, a lttle thought goes a long way:D

    And did you know that the Danino tribe used to worship the Godess Kali (The godess of Destruction) which is who they named their martia arts after.

    This maybe closer to the truth of were the name Kali was originally taken from.

    200 years later the Danino people moved to what is now called Kalifornia (as it was spelt then) and settled in an area known to them as Sticktown which in more modern times was misinterpreted and later named Stokton which even today is known by the Danino people from Santo as the new home of Kali, which many up until Vin Diesel's research was mistaken taken for the Filipino Martial Arts.

    On a dark moonlit night you can still hear the Anceint Danino people practicing their Kali in secret by following the ancient sound of the clacking of the Sabre Teeth from the Sabre Tooth Hippopotemus's which of course they still feast on in their secret cerimonies. Although many still think the the Ma people from Eskri and the Arn People from Is are decentdents of the Danino people but this has very little basis of truth after the great Scientist Dr Robert DeNiro found no genetic traces of Danino DNA in either the Eskri or Arn people.

    Deeper research is still being made to find out the truth.


    regards


    Pat
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2004

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