Arm hangers.

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Kframe, Apr 7, 2015.

  1. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Ok so this gets thrown around by virtually everyone. As Please Reality states you should be able to do a technique regardless of the opponents arm retracting or not.. I happen to agree however that requires training against a uke that retracts his arm.

    A thread regarding the lunge punch can be found here

    Its pointless to ask if any videos exist showing such training as i have looked and either they don't exist or are private and not circulated publicly or on the web. Every video of Soke or the Senior( read that as Real Shihan as I have heard it put) Shihan show them using arm hanging lunge punch's when they demo kata. Since i watch them often ill point to the Koto ryu and Kukkishin ryu dvd as well as the essence of budo video i see on youtube.

    So its not likely this is on video, but that does not mean its not being trained.

    So the question is, why do every single xkan video(ignoring the toshindo and akban) feature the Lunge punch with obligatory arm hanging?

    How is punching in kata and drilling done in the real shihans dojo in Japan? Do you regularly train against a retracting punch? If so how do you structure that training?

    Ill say this, i had a go at my instructors senior student full speed with a good old 1/2 with retraction(i only got off the 1/2, i intended to keep going and was actively looking to do so) and he dealt with it just fine, and i ended up with a broken rib in the process. Saw something similar with my head instructor as well.. So i know with regards to foreign instructors mine can deal just fine with real strikes.

    I wonder if part of the problem is nature of the attack vs the defense. When you do a punch from the typical range you see them done, when you miss thanks to his movement and/or deflection your arm can seem to hang their. I have had similar happen when i sparred in mma. My rear hand fired off and he dodged perfectly and it just seamed to keep going, the defense threw me off.

    If all these kata are done with the "lunge punch" the arm hanging phenomena will continue. The only way around i can see is if the kata were done with boxing style more realistic punch's.

    So clearly people in this art are able to deal with real punch's despite the lunge punch that is the mainstay of kata.

    So how do you guys train to deal with more modern strikes/kicks? Id be interested to hear how this issue is dealt with in Japan in the Most Senior Shihans Dojo.
  2. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Also wanted to mention i dont want this thread to just be about me and my newbish thoughts and questions. It is my hope for a good and honest discussion to be had from this. As the common refrain against arm hangers is omni present on this forum.
  3. Crucio

    Crucio Valued Member

    You say that, but in the OP your hole argument is made of terms like "realistic punch", "real strikes", and this implies that you think of Tsuki as "not a real/good punch".

    The "lunge punch" is a fairly complex movement that contains many possible attacks. It's more like a combination then a punch. Needless to say it contains the core of power generation mechanics that are critical for many techniques.

    Also, when you train kata, it is not just the "defender" that trains, but also the attacker. So it's a good thing to train Tsuki a lot because it contains so many important aspects.

    As far as "short distance" punching, they are also present. Direct punch, grab the sleeve and punch, grab the lapel and punch, etc. Things like Omote Gyaku are trained against many different types of attacks, so obviously the attacks have to be learned as well.

    If you have a good teacher, and you haven't been thought some aspects, it's because you are not ready(you haven't understood other more simple concepts), so be patient.
  4. Count Duckula

    Count Duckula Valued Member

    No, that is not what he said. Read it again. He specifically mentions the bad habit of striking with a tsuki, and THEN leaving your arm hanging there outstretched, waiting for the other guy to do whatever with that arm, instead of retracting it after the punch.

    Leaving the arm outstretched initially is ok if you want to give rank beginners an opportunity to figure out their footwork and distancing. It has no place in the kihon of someone who has been training for a while. That, and improper distancing for th etsuki are the 2 major bad habits displayed in many kan videos.
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2015
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I think first consider what you mean by "typical range". The range is one-step range for a lunge punch, which is a static range rather than dynamic. Dynamic range is what it is supposed to be.

    Second, consider that the lunge punch is a bit odd. It uses the alignment of a long range punch (sharp/linear angles), but the power mechanics of a short range punch (uses rising power from legs and hips for power).

    It seems more fitting for closing the gap quickly and then entering with the punch. And not even a punch, but maybe drawing a weapon with the movement and striking with the draw.

    The longer range makes some sense with weapons. Picture uke running at tori from ten feet away, entering sharply (on one point), and striking through tori with the lunge punch.

    There few punches done on the run that retract the arm. Most, like the lead right or left, strike through the target. Rather than retracting the arm, you can use a composite attack and attack with the same arm elbow and shoulder, rather than retract and strike with the other hand.

    You want a modern example of striking on the move, look at the "superman punch" and tell me if the arm is retracted like a jab... the answer is no.

    I think the nature of striking on the move is what is not always understood.

    I think you need different kata. I believe there are close-quarters fighting forms that cover this area. I think you only need to add in multiple strikes instead of single strikes.
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2015
  6. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Say what???:dunno:

    All ranges are covered in the curriculum, if they are not in your practice, you are at the wrong dojo. The mechanics and tactics behind oitsuki are sound, if you can't make it work, you aren't doing it right. There is no rising power in oitsuki, I am not sure what technique you are critiquing. It is three attacks in one motion, the first lead hand attack(that many cut out or get wrong), the followup hand strike(that everyone sees as a long range attack because they forget the first lead hand one) and leg attack. There is much more, but that is basically what you get, so the range can be longer for practice, or closer for application. Sorry, no video.:evil:
  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    My mistake then. I thought oi zuki started with an uppercut motion (rising power).

    See follow up hand strike after 4:48

    Edit: The strike uses what I call leaning power for further ranges so looks like more than one way to do the strike depending on if you emphasize the uppercut or the lean more.
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2015

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