Are Traditional Martial Arts Underestimated in MMA?

Discussion in 'MMA' started by JJMicromegas, Feb 21, 2010.

  1. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Not followed this thread much but I'll start in here as I've seen a bunch of stuff in this one that makes me go... WOT?!?!


    Well this is down to a couple of things:

    1) Consider the source. Often times if you look at who's saying this it's the fat nob ends wearings Tap Out tshirts that do all the armchair quarter backing of fights but haven't had one themselves and don't actually train.

    2) Lot's of TMA the way it is trained won't work in many types of fights let alone and MMA fight... err... whatever that means... I guess you're saying MMA fight as in an MMA competitive match.

    And then again... it comes down to the individual and the way they train. Many people just don't train with any sort of relevance to reality. So when faced with a fight they get lock up. Much of what they've trained doesn't carry over because they've not ever trained using that under and adrenalin stress scenario... which is what a fight is. Sure you're fighting your opponent... rule set or not... but first and foremost you're fighting your own adrenalin dump. If you can't deal with that... your chances of dealing with your opponent are slim.

    TMA obviously works. Many MMA fighters at the pro level come from TMA backgrounds.

    Err... sorry but you really sound ignorant here. It wasn't the Gracies promoting MMA. Seriously.. their whole schtick was BJJ. Different spelling altogether. If you've done your homework on Helio Gracie you'd understand he's about as TMA as you can get.

    One thing the Gracies get credit for is putting it on the line. They stepped up and went up against bigger stronger opponents with their style. They put their money where their mouth was. Not a lot of other peoples were willing to do that.

    You're trying to set up some sort of polarized view of things here and it's really not making any sense. Again go back and look at Helio Gracie and he pretty much embodies TMA.

    What are you expecting? For technique in an actual fight to come of clean and refined like it does in patterns or forms training in a format where there is no adrenalin pressure? Of course it wont. Or at least not always. I'm sure people who actually fight don't give a rats ass who pretty it looks as long as that RNC is locked in and sending their opponent into sleepy land or that arm bar is hyper extending that elbow or that knee bar is creating that pop and scream from their opponents knee joint.

    So really... don't come in here and try to argue aesthetics.. you will lose every time. Even spec the flip side... look at an 'MMA' fighter like Anderson Silva... beautiful technique. Text book. Perfection in movement. Yet he comes from a 'TMA' background and uses an amalgamation of TMA styles in an MMA environment. So really what you're saying makes zero sense.

    Sure. If you're point of reference in non-adrenalin scenarios where it's social hour in white pajamas. In actual fights... they tend to be pretty much near the top of the heap. The put their money where their mouth is... they in general show huge amounts of respect for their opponents... they have great work ethics... so really you better ante up your definition of 'martial artists' because so far your argument just doesn't hold water.

    err... what do you think happens in fights? What do you think Lyoto Machida or GSP or Anderson Silva or any of the other 'MMA' fighters do?!?

    Seriously... they apply their 'TMA' skills under an adrenalin charge situation with very real consequences if they're not good technicians.

    Furthermore... as has been said countless times there are any number of roughnecks out there who don't train squat and aren't technicians but have massive amounts of strength and courage who will rock your world all day long... so in terms of a fight... technique isn't everything.

    Sorry that's just reality. That's why there are any number of tough dudes out there who don't train that can still be an absolute nightmare to scrap with. That's reality.
    Again. BS. What MMA gyms have you trained out. How would you know? You really sound as if you're making this up as you go. Seriously how do you know what they train?

    I think if you'd actually been to any gyms that train MMA you'd see that they spend a very large amount of time on putting basic techniques to the test under adrenalin stress situations.

    Again you have set up some silly polarized view of TMA VS MMA. It's just not like that. There are countless examples of why that is a flawed model to base your beliefs on.
    err... many TMA's do have take downs and throws in them. The question is how many of them move beyond training statically? My guess is a good deal less for many schools/instructors/students than does your average MMA type gym.

    You really need to make up your mind that your are going to either support your own argument.. or wreck it. :p

    Babble. Again... you're either working to apply techniques under pressure and threat of getting your head taken off... or you're not. If you don't then your chances of getting very far in a situation where you're opponent wants to hurt you is so much less than if you had trained for the situation where you system is kicking adrenalin into your bloodstream and all that jazz.

    You go all over the place and back again. I'd say sit down and start to look at how you're using language. You're hamstringing yourself and muddling your arguments. You perhaps have good intentions but you're not doing a very good job at communicating them.

    oh my. :rolleyes:

    1) You don't seem to understand that the Gracies are not the universally elected representative for MMA. lol.

    2) You don't sound like you know enough about BJJ or Gracie history to actually make much of a relevant comment.

    Hmmm worry less about other peoples rhetoric and more about your own ability (or lack thereof) to get your ideas across in a coherent manner. You spend half of your post putting forth things that don't add up and the other half tearing down your own arguments because you seem incredibly unclear on your own definitions... you are then further hamstrung by what is an apparent lack of understanding what goes on in MMA, MMA type gyms and what sort of system BJJ is and how the Gracies are relevant to the martial arts since roughly the 1920's.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2010
  2. Zen Warrior

    Zen Warrior Red Dragon System

    I'm Well aware of K1, pride, shoot wrestling, etc. I'm also well aware of MMA being around for years. I train particularly in a style that would be other people be called MMA, a style that is happy to bring in techniques from shoot wrestling, Judo, and Muay Thai. We put ourselves in realistic situations with sparring at least once every month. I have no half baked excuses, as far as technique goes it pretty much goes out the window when watching an MMA fight and it turns into the case of getting the job done. I'm sure there are reasonable technicians in MMA fights but what I see in the ring is not that.

    What exactly keeps TMA and MMA apart? The same things that keep Judo and Jujitsu apart from Karate, and Chinese Kungfu, or etc... karate in it self doesn't have a broad enough range of submissions but that's where at least in its root form the Samuri would train in Jujitsu. Inherently there's a need to understand both forms of martial arts [if I'm going to keep things in MMA terms] of strike and submission because that's what the sport requires.

    One of the key points I think you missed that I made however is that a good TMA school will and should adapt to this, my head instructor is trained in shoot fighting and we bring ground techniques in to our training... call that MMA if you will and maybe I'm on the wrong side of the fence, but I don't see it. Look from the other side of the perspective. People have spent 600 years understanding the biomechanics of the human body and understanding the purpose of what a block is, what a strike is, and in the submission arts what a throw, take down, or etc is. Without understanding the purpose of what you're doing I don't believe you can be the best martial artist you can be.
  3. Zen Warrior

    Zen Warrior Red Dragon System

    double post
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2010
  4. Zen Warrior

    Zen Warrior Red Dragon System

    Your entire line of argument is about pressure situations. I don't see anything creating more pressue than actually having to be on the street and use it. In the end, in the ring the worst that's going to happen is that someones either going to get ko'd or tap out. I might be a bit of a purist but I have more respect watching a good Thai fight or a boxing bout because at least aesthetically for the majority of fights I've seen they're getting things right. If you don't care about aesthetics and would rather watch the equivalent of human cockfighting that's your own beef not mine. What I'm saying is that when I see these guys in a UFC ring I might as well be watching a couple of untrained street fighters go at it hammer and tong with no training. I know there's more to it, but there application makes me think otherwise. These aren't the types of martial artists that instill confidence in me when it comes to technique and if you can't get the basics right in form then you wonder where the rest comes form.

    As for the UFC argument, fine there's more to MMA then that, I'm not arguing against that and never did, I am making a point that a lot of people believe what they see in an MMA ring [predominantly UFC these days] is the reality when nothing could be further from the case. I'm not saying TMA is the reality either, but what I am saying is that you're throwing out a whole lot of peoples experiences who've been there and done that over the last 600 years with regards to karate. Something doesn't add up quite right there. MMA has become popular but it's not the be all and end all of MA and certainly those who don't start with a solid foundation won't last long when they're taken outside of the ring.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2010
  5. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Are you saying you believe samurai used to train karate?
  6. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Most JTMA are around a hundred years old, there is no such thing as a 'dai renshi' thats just a made up title used by westerners to sound more impressive. Things under pressure tend to look sloppy, but he your telling me gsp os bj penn has no technical ability then you obviously dont know enough to see what is there. No one is saying traditional training is useless just that sports training has progressed in the last hundred years and that as alwans martials arts are very context dependent.
  7. Body Sushi

    Body Sushi Valued Member

    Once a month huh? That is pretty impressive!
    Having done a little bit of boxing and judo myself, I can appreciate that's plenty enough!

    After all, sparring once a month is definitely the way forward when it comes to developping the timing and reflexes you need under pressure, when you're fighting a non-cooperative opponent.

    That said, your body must be taking quite a bit of a battering if you spar once a month... Maybe you should reduce that to once a year just to be on the safe side!
  8. Zen Warrior

    Zen Warrior Red Dragon System

    I'll honour the sarcasm in your post and also tell you we do bunkai just about every other night. Either way, I know personally what works and what doesn't the majority of my instructors have worked in security. The system works where it needs to, in the real world. I shouldn't need to further explain that.

    In Okinawa in particular yes the warrior class would train in unarmed combat arts known as te [the Japanese word for hand], blended with Chinese martial arts forms we have what is now known today as kara-te or [Chinese open hand]. However to return to the question yes the roots of Karate are from Okinawan warrior class, often called Samurai, any Okinawan based martial arts system has te in it. Thus historically it is correct to suggest that the roots of karate are in unarmed martial combat of Samurai class.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2010
  9. Body Sushi

    Body Sushi Valued Member

    Oh wow! you Sir have me convinced!
    Something like this? [ame=""]YouTube- Saifa 2-person drill - Bryson Keenan[/ame]

    Whilst I can see the usefulness of it, that you should consider this a substitute for sparring 3 or 4 times a week is kinda laughable...
  10. Zen Warrior

    Zen Warrior Red Dragon System

    That would be practical application of kata yes, you're obviously in a mood to be nothing more than a harmless troll so I'm just going to agree to disagree with you. Furthermore I didn't say it was a replacement for anything, more so it provides a relevant practical explanation of why we do kata and with kata of course you should learn the meaning behind what a strike is, what a knife hand is, what a leg sweep is, what any array of blocks are. You might disagree and say a strike is just a strike and knowing the why fors and where they came from is unimportant, you're entitled to that.

    Bryson is more than a decent exponent of Okinawan martial arts though he rarely trains with us these days. I haven't seen exactly that video though I have seen variations of it.

    [ame=""]what he is basically doing is this[/ame]

    While adding a practical approach to it, kata in order to remember the strikes, bunkai in order to practice them, sparring or occasionally ring fighting should you choose to, to add practical application.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2010
  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    the okanawian warrior class is more accuratly called the Shizoku Pechin, once the mainland Japanese warrior class invaded, the roots of karate (te) was generally kept a secret from their ruling overloads, this is further complicated by the misuse of the word samurai in the west to describe all classes of the japanese bushi, bushi itself having a slightly different meaning in okinawa,

    theres a very usefull link here about it:

    so anyway it is misleading to say that the same 'samuari' (i.e. mainland warrior class) practised karate, and also jujutsu like you tried to insinuate a few posts ago.
  12. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Then a) You dont understand wrestling

    b) what about people such as Kid Yamamoto:

    [ame=""]YouTube- Norifumi " Kid " Yamamoto highlight video 2008[/ame]
  13. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    By that you mean human fighting right? Just like the boxing and thai boxing and Karate Ippon Jiyu Kumite
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Shoot fighting is a form of MMA, why dont you argue with your head instructor about this?
  15. Body Sushi

    Body Sushi Valued Member

    @Zen Warrior

    I am not a troll (though harmless I might be), and I was trying to make a point that sparring once a month is nowhere nearly enough to develop any sort of fighting ability (at least in my opinion).

    You brought up doing "bunkai just about every other night", which made it sound like it was a valuable substitute.
    If -indeed- you didnt say "it was a replacement for anything", I cannot see how this statement: "I'll honour the sarcasm in your post and also tell you we do bunkai just about every other night." was logically connected to my sarcastic post.

    Take care.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2010
  16. Zen Warrior

    Zen Warrior Red Dragon System

    I guess I've seen a lot of average MMA fights, I also don't agree with the many people who seem to insinuate that MMA is the be all and end all of martial arts. I train in a system that is deliberately open to influence to many things including shoot fighting, but at the same time we train in kata so I see and appreciate the art in its purist form and I guess to an extent I'm to picky with my own appraisal of the MMA fights I've seen but on the other hand I believe if you don't practice proper form then it detracts from your ability to strike at your maximum potential.

    As I said previously it's a practical application of kata but not necessarily rudimentary kata such as saifa, it could be something entirely at whim though that's not entirely the right way of describing it. Of course Bunkai is a valueable addition to sparring and at the same time along with kata it gives you the practical application of the strike you're performing. As for sparring if you're trained well enough in a practical system you should be able to fight regardless of how many rounds you've sparred. Whether or not you get into a situation where you're overcome by fear is another matter. That will happen regardless of how many rounds you've sparred as its not a substitution for being out in the street and until we put ourselves out there in the situation where we have to defend ourselves none of us will really know what we're capable of.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2010
  17. spidersfrommars

    spidersfrommars Valued Member

    Personaly I think you see an art in its "purest form" when its being used for its intended purpose which is generaly to fight.
    Why do you think they aren't displaying proper boxing/muay-thai/sanda/whatever they train form during their fights. It may not look like your idea of "proper form" but thats just a subjective opinion.
  18. Body Sushi

    Body Sushi Valued Member

    let's move the argument away from the MMA/TMA dichotomy, which numerous posters have shown to be a non-sense anyway...

    The point I am making is that styles which place a lot of emphasis on sparring or randori (boxing, judo, muay thai... etc), with as few as possible rules as is reasonably safe, prepare you better for a fight (be it in a ring or in the street), than the ones that don't.

    They develop timing, the ability to improvise against a non-cooperative opponent, the ability to take a punch or a kick, learning to deal with the adrenal dump... etc.

    And I do not believe for one second that those styles who don't practice katas much (e.g. boxing/muay thai/or even MMA for that matter) don't practice proper form...
    Certainly, quite a bit of time is spent in my boxing gym on throwing a solid punch & perfecting technique.
  19. Zen Warrior

    Zen Warrior Red Dragon System

    Then I have a subjective opinion and that's what discussing things is about. On kata not only does it provide you with a way in which to remember correct technique it also makes you pick it apart until you never want to use a particular strike again. I'm not saying that you can't practice a strike outside of kata or that you shouldn't do bag work, but if you want a means in which to practice something until you're as good as you can be then I find kata the perfect tool for doing so. On ring fighting if anybody wants to step into the ring they're more than welcome to, we just had an amateur fight night using Thai rules with fighters from across our state and won 1 out of the 2 bouts we had fighters in which isn't to bad of a success rate. On boxing vs martial arts, thats a can of worms that could be opened with regards to striking and perfect technique and I won't go there.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2010
  20. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    1) It's not the entire line of argument. Go back and read again.

    2) The adrenalin stress situation is key to the conversation because it relates directly to how much carryover you actually have from your training to your actual fights.

    Which it doesn't honestly sound like you've done much of... but that's a different subject entirely. So short of going out and having a bunch of street fights as a way to train... training with under adrenalin stress is as close as your going to get. Deal with it... or not... continue to delude yourself.

    Hmm... From the sounds of it... doesn't sound as if you've ever been in the ring. You come off as talking out of your ass. I suspect you've never been battered in the ring or out... I suspect that you've never bee in a situation where you've had to put yourself under that type of pressure. You're rather dismissive of it off hand... always a tell tale sign of someone that hasn't walked the walk.

    WTF are you on about? Aesthetics has jack diddly to do with it. If it comes down to aesthetics you might as well be arguing pop-goes-the-weasel VS the shimmy-shimy-coco-pufff. ROTFLMAO!!!

    This seals it... you're a clown! Put on your red nose, pin on your big water squirter flower on your lapel and cram into a mini with all 28 of your clown mates.
    Who gives a rat's ass about aesthetics?!?! Seriously is this ballet?! Is this a world salsa competition? Are you on American Idol?!?!

    We are talking about fighting and the ability and skills used to defend/attack and prevail in combat situation... not aesthetics genius.:rolleyes:

    Put up or shut up fool.
    It's that simple... what MMA fights are you talking about? Seriously let's hear it? What promotion? What fighter? You don't even sound like you've watched any... and I mean why would you after all their 'aesthetics' are so sub-standard in your view right. I mean why dirty your prescious hands with bad aesthetics?


    Who are you kidding?!?!

    Just hush... you're some kata geek hung up on picture perfect forms. The exact type of clown getting KO'd in the early days of the MMA. :rolleyes:


    man that's alot of waffle. You having imaginary arguments with fat kids wearing Tap Out tshirts. The last time you carried over your amazing aesthetics and picture perfect form to an acutal fight was?!?!

    lol... we won't hold our breath waiting. Get yourself back to your social hour in whitey white PJ's.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2010

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