Not followed this thread much but I'll start in here as I've seen a bunch of stuff in this one that makes me go... WOT?!?! Well this is down to a couple of things: 1) Consider the source. Often times if you look at who's saying this it's the fat nob ends wearings Tap Out tshirts that do all the armchair quarter backing of fights but haven't had one themselves and don't actually train. 2) Lot's of TMA the way it is trained won't work in many types of fights let alone and MMA fight... err... whatever that means... I guess you're saying MMA fight as in an MMA competitive match. And then again... it comes down to the individual and the way they train. Many people just don't train with any sort of relevance to reality. So when faced with a fight they get lock up. Much of what they've trained doesn't carry over because they've not ever trained using that under and adrenalin stress scenario... which is what a fight is. Sure you're fighting your opponent... rule set or not... but first and foremost you're fighting your own adrenalin dump. If you can't deal with that... your chances of dealing with your opponent are slim. TMA obviously works. Many MMA fighters at the pro level come from TMA backgrounds. Err... sorry but you really sound ignorant here. It wasn't the Gracies promoting MMA. Seriously.. their whole schtick was BJJ. Different spelling altogether. If you've done your homework on Helio Gracie you'd understand he's about as TMA as you can get. One thing the Gracies get credit for is putting it on the line. They stepped up and went up against bigger stronger opponents with their style. They put their money where their mouth was. Not a lot of other peoples were willing to do that. You're trying to set up some sort of polarized view of things here and it's really not making any sense. Again go back and look at Helio Gracie and he pretty much embodies TMA. What are you expecting? For technique in an actual fight to come of clean and refined like it does in patterns or forms training in a format where there is no adrenalin pressure? Of course it wont. Or at least not always. I'm sure people who actually fight don't give a rats ass who pretty it looks as long as that RNC is locked in and sending their opponent into sleepy land or that arm bar is hyper extending that elbow or that knee bar is creating that pop and scream from their opponents knee joint. So really... don't come in here and try to argue aesthetics.. you will lose every time. Even spec the flip side... look at an 'MMA' fighter like Anderson Silva... beautiful technique. Text book. Perfection in movement. Yet he comes from a 'TMA' background and uses an amalgamation of TMA styles in an MMA environment. So really what you're saying makes zero sense. Sure. If you're point of reference in non-adrenalin scenarios where it's social hour in white pajamas. In actual fights... they tend to be pretty much near the top of the heap. The put their money where their mouth is... they in general show huge amounts of respect for their opponents... they have great work ethics... so really you better ante up your definition of 'martial artists' because so far your argument just doesn't hold water. err... what do you think happens in fights? What do you think Lyoto Machida or GSP or Anderson Silva or any of the other 'MMA' fighters do?!? Seriously... they apply their 'TMA' skills under an adrenalin charge situation with very real consequences if they're not good technicians. Furthermore... as has been said countless times there are any number of roughnecks out there who don't train squat and aren't technicians but have massive amounts of strength and courage who will rock your world all day long... so in terms of a fight... technique isn't everything. Sorry that's just reality. That's why there are any number of tough dudes out there who don't train that can still be an absolute nightmare to scrap with. That's reality. Again. BS. What MMA gyms have you trained out. How would you know? You really sound as if you're making this up as you go. Seriously how do you know what they train? I think if you'd actually been to any gyms that train MMA you'd see that they spend a very large amount of time on putting basic techniques to the test under adrenalin stress situations. Again you have set up some silly polarized view of TMA VS MMA. It's just not like that. There are countless examples of why that is a flawed model to base your beliefs on. err... many TMA's do have take downs and throws in them. The question is how many of them move beyond training statically? My guess is a good deal less for many schools/instructors/students than does your average MMA type gym. You really need to make up your mind that your are going to either support your own argument.. or wreck it. Babble. Again... you're either working to apply techniques under pressure and threat of getting your head taken off... or you're not. If you don't then your chances of getting very far in a situation where you're opponent wants to hurt you is so much less than if you had trained for the situation where you system is kicking adrenalin into your bloodstream and all that jazz. You go all over the place and back again. I'd say sit down and start to look at how you're using language. You're hamstringing yourself and muddling your arguments. You perhaps have good intentions but you're not doing a very good job at communicating them. oh my. 1) You don't seem to understand that the Gracies are not the universally elected representative for MMA. lol. 2) You don't sound like you know enough about BJJ or Gracie history to actually make much of a relevant comment. :bang: Hmmm worry less about other peoples rhetoric and more about your own ability (or lack thereof) to get your ideas across in a coherent manner. You spend half of your post putting forth things that don't add up and the other half tearing down your own arguments because you seem incredibly unclear on your own definitions... you are then further hamstrung by what is an apparent lack of understanding what goes on in MMA, MMA type gyms and what sort of system BJJ is and how the Gracies are relevant to the martial arts since roughly the 1920's.