Are Traditional Martial Arts Underestimated in MMA?

Discussion in 'MMA' started by JJMicromegas, Feb 21, 2010.

  1. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

  2. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    TMA equipment training can give you more detail level of training than the modern training method.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2010
  3. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Could you elaborate on that?
     
  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Also for me too? Modern sport science / Athletic results would seem to disagree with the statment.
     
  5. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    In SC, if you want to train the "knee seize and forward kick - grab your opponent's leading leg and sweep his back leg" combo, you can use:

    - Wooden stick twisting, cane bundle twisting to develop the left hand wrist twisting.
    - Bag throwing, belt cracking, brick twisting, single head twisting, wooden stick twisting, cane bundle twist to develop right hand strong grabbing (needed to dig your fingers into your opponent's upper arm skin).
    - Weight pulley to develop the right hand downward jerking.
    - Single head pulling to develop left hand knee pulling.
    - Cane bundel pushing to develop right hand head pushing.
    - Gon rotation to develop both arms twisting.
    - Cane bundle kicking, single head kicking to develop right leg forward kicking.

    By using the 2 men drill training, you can develop skill with your partner. By using all those equipments along with the solo drill, you can "enhance" your skill further more. Everything is very scientific down to the small little detail.

    I think the TMA approach that you first decide what "skill" that you want to develop, you then find the right equipments to help you to obtain that "ability" needed by that skill is very scientific and unique.

    You just don't see people train like this in any modern gym. It doesn't build big muscle for you. It may not help you if you don't intend to develop throws such as leg block (Harai Goshi) or leg lift (Uchi Mata).

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2010
  6. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    err... It doesn't sound like you've spent much time in a 'modern' gym. Fitness gym maybe.. a gym that trains for combat sports. Probably not.

    Seriously... athletics takes what works. It doesn't give a rats ass if its from TMA or where. If it improves your game... whatever your game is... they will use it. College sports is probably the best at adopting new training theories and methodologies and putting them to the test. Many combat oriented gyms took that one step further to include grip strength training etc.

    Bag throws and cable work are part of pretty much any combat oriented gym. In addition to a ton of other types of work as well. Seriously... you need to move past your polarized view of the world.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2010
  7. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Um, you aren't suggesting that modern martial artists get a room full of equipment first and then figure out what it's for, are you?

    What you're describing isn't traditional training. It's just sensible training. And you're kinda presenting it as a sales pitch for what you do by painting a very unrealistic picture of what the competition does.


    Stuart
     
  8. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Some Sambo guy (modern training?) got the right idea - integrate equipment training and combat skill training as one (not just muscle group isolation). It may not be fair to use Sambo as modern training example. After all Sambo did come from SC (Mongolian SC).

    http://www.youtube.com/user/thermaxgym#p/u/4/5PcediU-KBY
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2010
  9. Linds

    Linds Valued Member

    Your knowledge of conditioning for athletes is inaccurate. Compound multi joint movements are the rule single joint exercises the exception, except maybe amongst bodybuilders.
     
  10. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    You really haven't got a clue. I don't even think you could define 'modern' but you keep on blabbing about it. How many top gyms have you actually trained at that are fight gyms.

    If not how do you even know what you're talking about.

    You seem to think that modern training is fitness gym based on Nautilus equipment.

    Do your homework and actually find out what is being done. If you'd done that then you'd know there are a great many tried and true methods being used in 'modern' fight gyms... many of the movements and techniques have stuck around since way back because they work.

    Your polarized view is rather warped and relatively uninformed.
     
  11. Bronze Statue

    Bronze Statue Valued Member

    I had been under the impression that Sambo was derived directly from Judo, and the influence of things like Kurash came in later. (I'll have to look around for the sources there.) I've never heard that it was a "SC" derivative of any kind.
     
  12. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    I can't recall exactly what styles, but I've always read that both the founders of Sambo had a history in eastern european wrestling methods before founding.

    Either way, MMA guys definitely have sport-specific exercises. Uchikomi (newaza and tachi-waza), scarecrows, box drills, bob/weave, guard-crawls/lifts, slam-bag, heavy-bag, thai-bag, and sharkbait drills are just some we use regularly at our school off the top of my head.
     
  13. Linds

    Linds Valued Member

    What's SC? Mongolians usually do bokh or judo

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wB6WISba5M"]Mongolian / Tuvinian wrestling - YouTube[/ame]
     
  14. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

  15. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    It's a bit of a false dichotomy, really. There's very little in MMA that couldn't be called 'traditional' in the normal sense of the world. Muay thai is traditional in Thailand. BJJ has as much right to be called 'traditional' as anything else. Submission wrestling may well be the oldest form of martial art known to man. I'd say that MMA has been painted into the corner by certain TMAists who would prefer to stick their head in the sand and pretend it isn't happening.

    A lot of 'traditional' methods have been brought into MMA. The only thing you could really say is absent is the kata. And you could say that was no bad thing.

    By the same token, 'TMA' is something of a misnomer. Karate and judo, in their current forms, are certainly no older than about 70 years. The various styles of kung fu are mostly modern interpretations of a more traditional style. I'm not trying to do them down though- change in a martial art is a good thing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2010
  16. boards

    boards Its all in the reflexes!

    A little off topic, but when did Muay Thai stop being Muay Boran? I think a video was posted on MAP before the reboot of a black and white MT match that seemed very different, much more voiding than now.
    As for wrestling how much has freestyle or greco-roman wrestling changed in the last hundred years?
     
  17. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    One Sambo instructor had a workshop in Austin, Tx not too long ago (don't remember his name). The workshop subject was Mongolian SC. From what his statement, Sambo has strong influence fom Mongolian SC. That Sambo instructor had spent some time in Mongolia himself and he is writing a book about Mongolian SC (Boke).

    Sambo (Russian: самбо—also called Sombo or Cambo and sometimes written in all-caps) is a relatively modern martial art, combat sport and self-defense system developed in the Soviet Union and recognized as an official sport by the USSR All-Union Sports Committee in 1938, presented by Anatoly Kharlampiev.

    The word "Самбо" (Sambo) is an acronym of САМозащита Без Оружия (SAMozashchita Bez Oruzhiya), meaning "self-defense without a weapon" in Russian. Sambo has its roots in Japanese judo and traditional folk styles of wrestling such as Armenian Koch, Georgian Chidaoba, Romanian Trîntǎ, Tatar Köräş, Uzbek Kurash, Mongolian Khapsagay and Azerbaijani Gulesh.

    The founders of Sambo were Vasili Oshchepkov (who was executed under the orders of Stalin during the political purges of 1937 for refusing to deny his education in judo under its founder Kano Jigoro) and Viktor Spiridonov. They independently developed two different styles, both with the same name. Spiridonov's style was a soft, aikido-like system developed after he was maimed during World War I.[1] Anatoly Kharlampiev, a student of Victor Spiridonov, is often officially recognized as the founder of Sport Sambo.

    ,
    I'm glad to hear that I'm not alone on this, "multi joint movements are the rule single joint exercises the exception".

    I'm also glad to hear that there are truly not that much difference between traditional training method and modern training method. Whether you are training your stone lock of your KB, the result will be the same any way. If people can all look at the "similiarity" instead of the "difference", the world will be less conflict and a peaceful place to live.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2010
  18. Bronze Statue

    Bronze Statue Valued Member

    What's with the "[1]"? Are you footnoting something...?
     
  19. illegalusername

    illegalusername Second Angriest Mapper

  20. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member


    Great post. However, I had always been at odds with the term MMA, as I would think martial arts over the millineum have "mixed" in order to improve. Simply, versatility, what you call "well-rounded" is the key. Somewhere, over time, perhaps some martial arts had lost this.
     

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