Are Traditional Martial Arts Underestimated in MMA?

Discussion in 'MMA' started by JJMicromegas, Feb 21, 2010.

  1. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag New Member Supporter

    I think that is very well put. The threadstarter is absolutely right in that TMAs have been marginalized. He is also right that successful champions who use these styles are thought of as novelties. Machida with karate is a good example as is Cung Le with his kicking arsenal. But ap Oweyn rightly points out 'so what?' If it ain't broke don't fix it...

    Many of the big names in MMA actually have some TMA lurking in their background. Anderson Silva comments on the importance of his TKD training in his book (saying what he learned 'still saves him in fights'). But he is also heavily cross-trained and MT is his 'true love'. But there are even recent photos of him training Capoeira. GSP of course has a karate background and his kicks are fairly good. He relies a lot on wrestling, but his karate adds another threats people need to consider. If you think about 3 of the 5 UFC champions have some sort of TMA that they claim was a big part of their background (GSP, Silva, and Machida).

    Training for prize fights, however, is far different than typical martial arts training. Even a fairly dedicated student who trained every night for an hour/hour and a half doesn't even come close to the prep training of a serious prize fighter. Heck even a BJJ guy who went to class regularly doesn't approach prize fighter training level. So to me it is really apples and oranges.

    I'm a TMA guy myself, and I see plenty get bent out of shape about the whole MMA craze. But the way I see it the two can coexist pretty easily. One is more similar to boxing/MT in that it is ring oriented and the other is more lifestyle related (regular training over an extended period that fits into everyday life).
     
  2. boards

    boards Its all in the reflexes!

    Truely it is upto TMA people to step up and be counted like Machida has, if they want TMA to be held in high regard. Since you have mentioned Silva and GSP, do they noticebly show their TMA backgrounds the way Machida has, or have they modified to so heavily that you cant really pick it? I suppose Liddel and Rutten could be added to that.
     
  3. aaron_mag

    aaron_mag New Member Supporter

    As I mentioned Silva's true love is MT/Boxing and GSP has become known more for his wrestling ability than his karate. But both credit their respective TMAs as a formative part of their martial arts experience. So it is difficult really to say (unlike with Machida where you see the influence). Would Silva be Silva if he just started in MT? Would GSP be GSP if he was an all american wrestling protegee like others in the UFC? I mean core athleticism is definitely something they share. It is impossible to really know.

    But I think it is important that neither of them say, "And then I wasted years and years of my adolescence with this useless art..." Both seem to feel it helped them.
     
  4. boards

    boards Its all in the reflexes!

    Thanks Aaron, I figured they wouldnt undervalue their early training. Hopefully we will see more lik Machida and Le to mix things up a little.
     
  5. JJMicromegas

    JJMicromegas Valued Member

  6. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    I see karate as the core of Liddel's stand-up game. His stance, his low guard, his favoring of big powerful reverse punches instead of combinations, all seem to be based off of karate instead of any kickboxing or muay thai that I've ever seen. The only argument I've heard that his stand-up game isn't karate seems to be "but it works," which is a "no true Scotsman" fallacy if I've ever heard one.

    I was going to write more, but aaron_mag said everything I wanted to:

     
  7. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Didn't Uriah Faber once finish a five-round fight after thoroughly breaking a hand in round one? I know it's a bit of a tangent, but WOW. I am not half that much of a manly man.
     
  8. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    I think that's a very key point. Most people who don't train in MMA are pretty indifferent about whether their art is held in high regard by MMA fans. There's a big element of self selection that leads people who want to be good at MMA to train in the arts that the existing crop of fighters has shown to be good bases for the sport.

    Absolutely. There's a big confusion between "necessary" and "sufficient" at work there. MT and BJJ may be sufficient to make you a good MMAist, but that doesn't make them necessary for you to be a good MMAist.
     
  9. boards

    boards Its all in the reflexes!

    Cheers mate
     
  10. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    As for GSP:

    http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/461

    I don't see a ton of Kyokushin in his stand-up game, but he knows better than I do. And it sounds like it had a big impact on his athleticism and toughness...it's hard to argue that a good Kyokushin dojo is going to give you a whole lot of athleticism and toughness.
     
  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    They are essential in the manor of that, everyone in MMA uses the forms of training developed in MT, BJJ and wrestling, if you are lacking in one of them, then someone will take advantage of it.

    Your confusing names of arts with training methods.

    If you spar with strikes, then at some point it will start to resemble MT/kickboxing, if you roll with subs, then at some point it will look like No_GI BJJ/Sambo etc, if you wrestle for position and takedowns then it will look like greco/freestyle etc

    Dont get hung up on the names.
     
  12. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Do you believe that shadowboxing, plyometrics, pounding on heavy bags and focus targets, sparring with partners, etc are all training methods developed originally by Muay Thai alone, and that anybody else who uses those training methods as part of their striking training took them from Muay Thai?

    When are Chuck Liddell's and Lyoto Machida's stand-up games going to start to resemble Muay Thai and kickboxing? Neither are spring chickens, both have trained countless hours, and it hasn't happened yet...
     
  13. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    No, you've got it backwards, and your again over obsessed with names, Im saying function creates form, and circumstances will dictate tactics.

    Machida is great, and to get good he's had to learn to spar against orthadox strikers (MT etc) roll against BJJ'ers, and wrestler wrestlers (sumo and otherwise) thats it, you say he's doing karate, great, knock yourself out, but dont get hung up on names, hes doing relevent kihon, and randori to MMA rules, and that is what will get you good at MMA.

    He's some videos of kids at chucks own school:

    http://www.thepit.tv/

    Machida training:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJHzvDKKoi8"]Lyoto Machida & Chinzo Machida training at VIPMMA - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TD2It4RrYEg&feature=related"]Lyoto Machida Training For UFC 98 Video by BadBoy planetamma com br visit! - YouTube[/ame]


    I dont really care what name you call it, but there all good honest training.
     
  14. JJMicromegas

    JJMicromegas Valued Member

    I agree to a certain extent that a punch is a punch and a swing kick is a swing kick regardless of what you call it. However, there some techniques that are specific to certain arts that allows us to distinguish them.

    For examply Kyukoshin Karate does not allow punches to the face but the arsenal involves a wide variety of kicking techniques. Muay Thai has fewer kicking techniques but is well known for it's elbows, knees and clinch work. Judo focuses on throws, Wrestling on take downs and dominating an opponent (even this varies because there are hundreds of wrestling styles), and BJJ on ground fighting.

    No one seemed to really read that article so I'm going to quote some of the relevant portions:

    http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/UFC-94-Analysis-On-Prominence-and-Possibility-16017

     
  15. Linds

    Linds Valued Member

    So 3 pages of discussion and still no working definition of TMA?

    [​IMG]
     
  16. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    500 years from now, today's MMA will be called TMA. TMA guys train "stone lock". MMA guys train "kelly bell". Besides the stone lock is made of stone and the kelly bell is made of steel, they both look the same, feel the same, and function the same.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2010
  17. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    The critical difference is that MMA guys don't wear a collar shirt and a sweater when they use their kettlebells.
     
  18. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Have you got a definition you'd like to offer?

    Was that even the question asked in the original post?
     
  19. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Sanda/Sanshou + ground game = MMA

    Sanda/Sanshou can be cross trained in long fist, prey mantis, XingYi, Baji, Shuai Chiao, ... It does not have to come from boxing, Muay Thai, and wrestling.

    Those guys (without shirt) in the following clips have only trained TMA (long fist, Shuai Chiao, ...). They don't have any boxing, Muay Thai, and wrestling. Should we call them TMA guys or MMA guys (if ground game is added in)?

    My point is - the TMA and MMA are more similiar than we think. After all we only have 2 arms and 2 legs.

    http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_3.wmv
    http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_4.wmv
    http://johnswang.com/Sanshou_5.wmv
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2010
  20. Linds

    Linds Valued Member

    No I don't. That's why I'm asking. Traditional martial art is a meaningless phrase to me. Without a definition this discussion could go round and round and get nowhere because people have different personal definitions.

    OP do you train a TMA? A lot of MMA places will offer classes that are just MMA sparring. So there's really nothing stopping you from trying out whatever you do in an MMA context.
     

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