Are there any religions based on logic?

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Dead_pool, Aug 1, 2015.

  1. Xanth

    Xanth Valued Member

    I believe in both creationism and evolution as it makes the most logical sense to me. If you were given the task of creating a new animal, I'd bet you give it the ability to adapt to it's environment to survive. I was thinking about this topic and found this interesting argument highlighting evidence of evolution occurring today.

    http://www.cracked.com/article_19213_7-animals-that-are-evolving-right-before-our-eyes.html
     
  2. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    that's fine if you want to believe in creation.

    but don't say things that are patently untrue. there is tons of evidence supporting the theory of evolution--that's why it's a scientific theory, not a hypothesis.

    there is actually no logic to creation.
     
  3. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    It's not. Just understand some basic properties of life (inheritance, mutation, differential reproduction, access to resources etc) and it's self evidently true and the correct way organisms developed on this planet.
     
  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I do worry when people list things that they think show science is wrong, when they obviously don't, not even close.

    even the ICP are doing it - (clean edit)

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iobf9T0miho"]ICP-Miracles Clean Radio Version - YouTube[/ame]
     
  5. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Definitely not. Roll your eyes, everything you described is practically nothing in terms of mastering the universe. A drop in the proverbial bucket.

    Relatively cannot be completely mathematically described. If you go read up on it you'll find it has glaring logical (mathematical) holes in it where gravity is concerned. The reason is simple arithmetic, but the implications confounded Einstein and they continue to confound his peers.

    My background in these subjects is perfectly fine I've studied physics and the history of science, and yet still you're trying to browbeat me with your own intelligence, ironically tell me I can't admin to my own ignorance, but you think we've mastered time, space, math, and quantum physics. You're ignorant to claim such things about another person just because you can't follow their reasoning.

    That's your and their problem, and no I haven't gone off any deep end. I've made absolutely no strange or grand claims in this thread, which is where you and they have gone with it. Like I said, this indicates you're not interested in a one-on-one or group discussion, but instead point-and-shaming someone who proved you are wrong about a number of things.

    And it's still the case. There are many things and questions math and science cannot solve today, and never will. Maybe you've not actually studied a lot of philosophy or spent time with physicists that work at the quantum level (I assure you I have), and they have no problem with this.
     
  6. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Except the systematic investigation and logic you speak of utterly fail at the quantum level (I said the word again, do your worst).

    See here's what you don't understand raptor...humans will always use that systematic logic to explore, it's how we use our 5 senses to analyze the world. But there are clearly inherent limitations in those 5 senses as well as the logic that abstracts sensory input into patterns and concepts like "one".

    You and others seem to suggest that logic is capable of unlocking every mystery. It's clearly not, quantum physics proves there exists "rules and regs" of creation that are not logical, or governed by what humans call logic.

    Now, you guys can keep up with the "you're ignorant/not smart/don't get it" routine or you could at least engage me philosophically without making so many trivial logic and math errors. Or maybe you've spent too much time discussing what you believe about science online, instead of actually taking part? I'm a scientist, I hang out with other scientists, and I study science and hope to advance my field in it. This thread seemed really interesting and all of a sudden, doesn't, when everyone in it starts attacking your education.
     
  7. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    So unless your Dr Who...... what are these things, that Maths and science cannot solve and why do you believe (because it is a belief not a fact, unless you know.... time traveler with a scarf) they will never be solved?
     
  8. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    double post
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2015
  9. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    edited for later
     
  10. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    It's one thing to disagree or question, I do plenty of that. It's another to call out someone's education or intellect on a subject, when I am perfectly well educated on matters of philosophy and history, and relatively well educated on matters of science. I didn't say I didn't understand those things, I correctly stated that they are places where logic doesn't function any longer.

    Infinity is not a "rational number", literally. Again basic math, not PhD level. It cannot be counted, which is highly illogical given the definition of "number".

    The human mind is a playground of illogical functions, one of the outputs of that function is art, poetry, and even good science. A lot of that good science was driven by religious people, searching for answers because the "science" they already have didn't explain everything (and it still doesn't).

    Black holes, well what I said is straight from Einstein, Hawking, and Neil DeGrass Tyson. At and beyond the event horizon, human logic simply no longer applies. The world of extreme gravity seems to want no part of human logic. The same mechanics are at play in the quantum (!) realm, I got that reading "Schrodinger's Cat".

    Now, before we start getting more "god of the gaps" and claims that I'm "off the deep end", "don't understand what I'm talking about", " need a PhD", convince me you're not the ones totally off the deep end, arguing illogically that human logic is capable of figuring out the whole universe, considering how little we truly know.
     
  11. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    There are an infinite number of unassailable questions. Using logic, some are unassailable in time (you could not solve them within the age of the universe) and some are unassailable in space (you could not solve them if you had every resource in the universe at your disposal).

    But then! There's the infinite realm of puzzles and questions that literally logic can't even start, because of human limitations in perception. No one on earth can tell you where this patterns starts or stops, because it never starts, and it never stops. Quite illogical.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I said logic, not human logic, That's your attempt at redefining the debate, what is human logic anyway, if not an attempt at pure logic within the confines of being a human or is it like dog maths, or cat kung fu?

    Also as soon as we get thinking computers invented, it'll be cold hard silicon logic all the way.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2015
  13. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Grade school? I'm in my 30's...I did have quantum physics in high school, college, and I studied the history of it in graduate school.

    Quantum physics does NOT follow the logic, or math. Statistics is the wrong word for you to use the correct is "probability", and they are not the same thing either. Quantum physics is not perfectly logical. Relativity is DEFINITELY not logical at extreme gravity or at the scale of quantum effects such as zero point fluctuation.

    Relativity only seems "perfectly logical" to you, because you're forcing it to be, and don't want think that hard about it. Obviously the extremely intelligent people that work in that field don't believe it's "perfectly logical". If it was they'd have a much easier job.

    If your own "god" is logic and science and you believe they can solve every problem... you leave no room for imagination, emotion, philosophy, as well as all the human dilemmas that can't be solved with logic or science, like love.

    Love, again something beyond the realm of logic and science, is a major selling point element of many religions. The community, family, faith in each other is as important as faith in a robed figure, or spaghetti monster.
     
  14. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Its an optical illusion, the word illusion tells you its a trick michael, depending on the medium its quite easy to tell you where the image being printed is started.

    or if you wish - this pattern started in 1934, with Oscar Reutersvärd

    ''The Penrose triangle was first created by the Swedish artist Oscar Reutersvärd in 1934. The mathematician Roger Penrose independently devised and popularised it in the 1950s, describing it as "impossibility in its purest form".''


    Hilariously your saying logic cannot understand Impossibility, so therefore logic can only understand possibility, which is good enough for me.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2015
  15. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool the merc with the mouth MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Your God is Imagination, well I would of never guessed.............
     
  16. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    except the adaptation doesnt happen as individuals, it happens as changes in the population over generations.
    evolution is always happening.
    - the elephants on cracked.com have actually undergone artificial selection (evolution due to human intervention) from ivory poaching, elephants with small or no tusks arent hunted as vigorously and therefore have more breeding opportunities leading to more elephants in the next generation having small or no tusks.
    - Peppered moths are a famous example of populations adaptation to environments over successive generations.

    But the issue is - if you believe this could happen on a macro-scale (animals) then do you believe it happens on a microscale?
    - Long term experiments (over 50,000 generations) on bacteria show similar adaptations over generations too environments containing various conditions and nutrients.

    But maybe you dont believe that single celled organisms can become multicellular organisms?
    - let me point you towards the Portuguese man of war, a collection of single cellular polyps that form a colony and specialise into component parts (stingy bits, swimmy bits etc) of complex entity which is likely similar to proto-multi-cellular organisms (evolved as colonies/clusters for better survival odds).

    But maybe you cant get how life could have started without that special "Godly Spark".
    - It's low mathematical probability, abiogenesis is a process in which billions of chemical reactions culminate in a very basic single cellular organism. Lipid bilayers form very easily.

    All of this however doesnt disprove the existence of a god, just one specific ideology and god. How about a god who decided to play out the simulation of a universe where the events happening right now happen?

    What makes us so special is that on all the worlds in the universe and all the environmental conditions that are present, we had the dumb luck of forming single cell organisms which became multicellular which developed enough conscience to ponder our place in the universe.
    I think thats more magnificent and satisfying (makes me feel special) than a god who chooses who lives or die based on genetic profiles.
     
  17. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Play nicely or don't play at all.
     
  18. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    I agree with southpaw - from a mod point:
    That post specifically is getting close to trolling.
     
  19. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Logic doesn't "understand" anything. Humans understand.

    Logic helps them understand. And in a small way logic just helped you understand that what you're seeing is an illusion, however it still proves my point, that the illusion itself presents impossible questions.

    Now ask yourself how much of physical reality you think logic explains so well, could be an illusion. Everything you think is 0's and 1's and so easily discrete and definable in terms of logic, could be a "flaw" of your human perception in conflict with the true fabric of creation (something we glimpse when peering in black holes or beyond the subatomic)

    That's where much modern quantum research is heading, wherever you look. The more we learn, the better we understand there is so much we don't know. What if that trend continues like the illusion? What if science can't ever explain it all? I guess we're lucky we have our infinite, illogical imaginations after all.
     
  20. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    the great thing about logic, math, science, is that no deity is needed, nor wanted.
     

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