Are sit-ups bad for you? And what to replace them with?

A little more on-topic, I found the following video featuring Dr Stuart McGill:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=033ogPH6NNE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=033ogPH6NNE[/ame]

The exercises he advocates look remarkably like 'stir the pot' on the gym ball (thanks Frodo!), alternate arm/leg plank raises from the knees (thanks Simon!), with a variation of 'drawing squares', the the "McGill Curl-up".

Just a couple more non-spine curling core strengthening options to try out...

So, one question that I have is this: with dead bugs, are you supposed to press your spine (including lower spine) in to the floor (not hard, just touching) and keep it there while you are lowering your leg(s), or should you keep a slight curve to the lower spine like with the McGill Curl-up?

 

Out of interest, how do leg raises and dragon flags compare to situps in terms of keeping the lower back and spine healthy?

 

Great, thanks Mum and Dad

Figurative, of course!

 

Okay, so say... hypothetically, of course... I was a horribly out-of-shape 42-year-old who has access to a gym or two, but is really looking to start with some very basic, equipment-free movements on a mat, what's the rock bottom starting point?

Dead bugs? Several variations?

Planks? Several variations?

Leave it at that until I get some core strength going? Or add in some back exercise(s) as well?

And how would I assemble an actual routine? Would you do this with reps? Duration (e.g., 30 seconds each)?

I'm a real neophyte with this stuff. Relying, in my youth, on regular ol' situps and the metabolism of a weasel.

Assume I know nothing aside from what I've read in this thread.

Thanks in advance.

 

Yes, that's pretty much it. But the station at my gym also has horizontal handles which allow me to do tricep dips and suspended crunches. (it's necessary to look upward when doing suspended crunches to maintain balance. I've almost fallen a few time by neglecting that. :bang

 

I just cant resist talking on this thread, in fact core strength is my latest obsession lols. Ok well Im not a guru on all things martial or all things fitness training related either but I have been working out in each for awhile now and I have great aspirations as well.

Im going to be honest Im a little biased about the sit up heres why. I was in the army, in the army you do a lot of situps. But just because I think the can work dosent mean I believe in training them five days a week for thirty minutes at a go, in fact I think the opposite is true, I train them about twice a week for about 30 seconds to a minute, that's just situps though. I have a few other abb exorcizes I do for building core strength, not just the sit up.

OK I encourage you to research this yourself but heres the thing, abbs like you see the pros with arnt built in a gym alone, it takes some dieting and proper nutrition to get a wash board stomach, those are the Gods honest facts, no ifs ands or butts. And most the time if your doing a ton of power lifting and also beating your abs into oblivion with sit ups you likely cant keep it up with out severe back pain, just a fact folks.

so heres the scoop in my opnion. If your a martial artist and you want to stay fast and strong don't bulk up, don't go bench all day and eat like a pig, really it isnt good for some people to do that anyway but for a striker it can really take away some speed and range of motion. Go wit body weight exorcizes, and don't go over board with them, thirty seconds to a minute and thirty seconds is enough to get results, and its a duration you can maintain for years and years of training without burning up a joint. sit ups are no exception to the rule, if you over train them and ignore your lower back your going to hurt yourself.

I have a work out journal called journey of chaos, check it out, and see what you think, but in the mean time heres an example of how I train.

First, diet is critical, if you over or under eat your body will get fat and bloated, you have to learn how to eat correctly. Based on your bmr and your activity level you will need a certain amount of calories (food). Your activites might change from day to day, so the amount of fod you need will also change from day to day, Idk maybe you do the samr thing every day so just figure it out, theres a million sites on nutrition and how to figure your bmr, get out there and look it up. If you don't eat right, you will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever have a wash board stomach, unless God steps down and waves his wand and does a miracle ok, or you have lipo suction, and who wants that, not me.

Abs and core are like everyone is saying engaged during all kinds of activity, that is also including sitting up in a chair or couch, so posture can also effect your abbs and back wrather you know it or not. but anyway let me go on.

Heres my formula for beginners, don't do this unless your a beginner or are more advanced, if you are in physical therapy you are not a beginner, you are in the invalid stage of working out known as therapy, this is not for therapeutic bennifit, do not do this if you are in or need some kind of therapeutic exorcize...

OK here it is

1. strength building exorcize. either upper body or lower body. Push up, bench press, weighted squats, body weight squats you decide.
2.a cardio ecorcise, like overhead arm clap, or standing leg raise it should be the opposite of what the above exorcize was, so if you did a strength building upper body exorcize then you do a cardio lower body exorcize, also don't rest between these sets, go right to the next one if you can. on lower body cardio put something in here that also hits abs, again like standing leg raise, it will hit the oblique if you swing your leg out to the side. my point is your working core and cardio with a lower body type exorcize here.
3.SHADOW BOX. you must shadow box if you want to be a functional martial artist, if you don't spend time shadow boxing in your discipline than you are being a naughty martial artist shame on you, do this every single day ok.
4. Now do a core exorcize, like situps, or crunches, or grass cutters for lower back, or turn and bounce for lower back, or windmills for lower back. heres the point its a core exorcize, if you do sit ups on this cycle then on the next cycle do a lower back exorcize not another set of situps, or you wont walk right for a week ok, youll see just try it yourself. Now all the exorcizes I mentioned above should be done for about a minute and the cycle should only be repeated two times.

Im out.

 

Well I have obviously been doing it wrong for over forty years. Sit ups, leg lifts and crunches have worked for me and I have the abs to show for it. I have always done a form of a modified sit up and a form of modified leg lifts throughout my life. I have consequently always had a very strong core. Now I also have done weight lifting, martial arts, sports, etc. (which also help with your core strength) Doing sit up or leg lifts have never bothered my back. The only time my back has been injured was weight lifting doing a clean and jerk to military press. (my form on one was poor and yes I had a belt on) Once the swelling went down and I was feeling good I went back to sit ups and leg lifts and added crunches and walla I have been fit, trim and abdominal in shape since them. Obviously I am doing it wrong!

When I do leg lifts my hands are flat under my back and I do a wide variety of exercises with the leg lifts. When I do the modified sit up my feet are either supported or unsupported and I put my hands out in front and pull them to my chest as I come up. So both are modified but work great for me!

 

Mechanically sit ups load the spine in a very dangerous way.

Also you may want to asses how strong your core really is if your lower back can be damaged by a weight you can millitary press, that doesn't sound esspecially strong to me.

 

Steve, I damaged my back in a very minor way oh so many years ago with a very heavy weight. (over thirty) My core is incredibly strong, similar to collegiate and professional athletes. If you look at how I described the injury I used poor technique on one rep. (if I was not clear sorry) Since then I am what you would call in great shape. Both core and more! Modified sit ups, modified legs lifts and crunches have worked for me along with free squats and a robust martial training regimen. Six pack and a strong core. I will say though the number one thing I do which I feel is more important than anything is working out with kettle bells. Though that only came about in the last ten years or so! Kettle bells are great for overall strength and flexibility! Still I continue to do sit ups, leg lifts and crunches and feel and act like a man in his early twenties.

 

pretty much the easiest thing to do is to plank. and planks will keep on being useful for so long that you don't really need anything else, strictly speaking (which of course doesn't mean it's wrong to do something else instead), so for the purpose of simplicity, one or two planks every day, building up to a minute or so of uninterrupted planking, and you'll soon be on your way to the himalayas to become the abdominable snowman.

 

I really don't understand why people rubbish Dragon flags. Is it because of the Bruce Lee connection, and the whole cult around his influence on training? Or because a lot of people might struggle to do one? I think they're great, if really tough to do, the tension is not unlike that tightness you need on some seriously heavy lifts. I still try to get that feeling when doing a heavy bench, and try to feel where the tension is needed. By contrast the plank is a challenge, but most people can do a minute, if they can resist the boredom of just trying to hold a static position. I see them done in the gym all the time, they are easy non threatening exercise for the beginner as well as more experienced. I do occasionally see gymnastic hold positions which are also tough, like front lever, l-sit or handstand

 

dragon flags are awesome.

 

Haru - i used to do gymnastic hold positions in climbing days. so much easier when i was twig weight.
although i can do just as many pull ups as before so im thinking itll just take a short while of practice

 

I do not dis agree in the least of bits. In fact I totally agree and only wish that I knew of something better.

I have been working on a personal physical training system for about two years now and Im really not sure which ecorcizes are really best for core or I should say abbs really, I do know a few core exorcizes but for the abbs specifically I have to admit Im pretty lost right now and that sit ups and crunches are just what im using right now because Im an ex military dude that has just stuck with what hes done in the past.

I will say that I have a curious notion about yoga, I cant be sure because I don't know yoga and have only done one or two yoga practices my whole life, I have watched several yoga videos and from what I can see it isn't at all a very intense work out all the movement seemed very slow and somewhat graceful maybe. But abbs aside I still like yoga stretches and poses in my routine, I use a couple different poses to work balance, and their are a couple stretches I think happy baby and thread the needle I like for the cyatic nerve. Ok I could turn this into a love of yoga reply but Im not going to.

So yes I agree with every one and anyone who says situps hurt your back, they hurt my back frankly and I wish I knew an effective alternative that would burn calories and raise the heart rate while strengthing the abbs specifically but I admit I dant know one, and Ive looked around and the only thing I see, is planking, which I think is kinda overated unless your like a total newb at working out, and some kind of bent over leg to elbow cow cat thing that I didn't endorse because larger fatter people couldn't do it and so I didn't wanna try to incorporate it into my own system for my own crazy reasons.

 

how much do you plank, bodyshot? i just did 3.5 minutes and it nearly killed me. also, try planking with only one hand. fricking brutal.

if you prefer something more dynamic though, dragon flags are your answer if you only do bodyweight stuff, else if you do weights hit up some heavy-ish anderson front squats, really heavy front squat lockouts (holding them for time is monstrous on the abs), and heavy one-arm rows (for obliques, mainly. as heavy as you can, rowing from the floor if you need to).

 

Put plates on your back while planking and doing push-ups, bodyshot
Also lifting heavy stuff over head and handstands