Are counter-throws commonly taught?

I'm wondering if counters for throws and sweeps are commonly taught in Judo. I remember taking a few classes when I was young and for every throw, we learned two counters for it.

 

never seen a club which doesnt teach them. incidentally for those who think judo/bjj look "messy" its because both people know the counters to the throws/submissions. if they were fighting someone who didnt it would look nice and clean

 

Yeah, I teach them too. It's kinda essential. Even if you don't teach any 'specifically' they come out in Randori anyway.

 

Hehe, even more fun are the counters to counters.

We learnt a counter to a shoulder throw, which is pull your arm in to throw them over you (it kind of looks like a yoko wakare, only you staret already on the ground), and to counter that, you go with the pull and roll safely onto your back, then use the ground as a lever to apply an arm lock (Tai Gatame Ude Kujiki). From here you can switch to sometihng like Ude Garami Henka Waza to pick them back up and parade them around.

:woo: mwahahahaha

 

I remember those I've been remembering my judo days and thinking about whether I want to go back. Never made it past Orange, though: I got really upset at a ref's call at a tournament; this green belt threw me on my head and the ref didn't call it. I quit after that, mostly because I was paired by weight rather than by skill level. I was young, though, and heavy for my age. Now that I'm grown I might go back.

 

Yep, its an essential part of training, as are set-ups/fakes, they think your going for something react against it and end up helping you do exactly what it was you had planned.

Col

 

Yeh they are commonly taught. However the thing you must remember is that a decent judoka doesn't stop after one throw attempt....there will be a combination of throws coming at you whilst you try to counter that first throw so be ready.

 

counters aint so commonly taught in clubs in our area till you get to about green or blue. i may make an exception if a student of mine is going into a tournament. sweeps however, are amongst the first things i teach in my club. they're good in their own right and good for setting up the big throws.

 

Yeah I remember sweeps being taught from day two (day one was getting used to seiza-sitting ) I'm pretty sure that sweeps are, or very well should be, nearly universal in martial arts: They're so easy to incorporate with strikes, and even easier for set-ups for throws, like judoboxer said.

 

Counter throughs

Remeber Guys,


To those that havent learned counters yet or that didnt begin learning these techniques until later in your fundamental developement...Kano sensei and the Kodokan have strict methodology for teaching. Kano stated numerous times that Judo must be taught in a distinct order. Well, counter throws are very much a part of that order; however, they are not at the foremost of that order!

Patience is a virtue!

Roll On!
Spookey

 

Hi Spooky, welcome.

If you look at the SJF syllabus you'll notice that counter throws aren't taught until Brown belt, so there is the natural progression.

Col

 

Uchi-mata sukashi and tsubame gaeshi are the only decent counters.

 

really? is this from your experience or is it a universal judo fact?

i find that tanio toshi, in its many variations is pretty decent for countering forward throws (ippon seonage, tai toshi, etc).

i also find that people that select two or three throws, and limit themselves to those throws, enjoy only short term success.

 

Like Koga, Yamashita, Kashiwazaki, Adams, Briggs? All only used a few throws.

Standing waiting on someone attacking you so you can try and haul them over with tani-otshi/ sukui nage etc...is not the height of skill.

Tsubame gaeshi is the height of skill.

 

so your saying that those judo players 'only' used their favorite 2 or 3 throws in contest?
they might have finished up the attack with their favorite (briggs with her tomo nage for example) but thats not all they did. they set up thier final throw by using a range of other throws which may not have worked but it got thier opponent in the right position.

and who said i wait round for someone to move in so i can use tanio toshi? i said i find it decent in its variations. not the height of skill? have you seen the hand assited tanio toshi? it difficult to get but if you do get it, its pretty spectacular. ends up looking like a suplex.

and you know what? for the life of me, i couldn't think what Tsubame-gaeshi was . just looked it up and its one of my favorite moves
i wouldn't say it was the height of skill, although it is good.


*edit* AND, i've noticed something..... is it co-incidence that the two counters you mentioned as being the best, appear right next to each other in the KODOKAN? book fall open on that page did it?

 

I have no idea how they appear in Kano's book, but I stand by my statement that I think they are the only counters that deserve to be taken seriously as skilled movement. Anyone can lift a dustbin.

Who's talking about you? You just decided to take offence at what I said, no offence. None was meant I assure you.

Now it is commonly accepted in Judo that an ippon by footsweep is the height of skill, so it follows that tsubame gaeshi, sweeping the footsweep, is the height of countering skill. Surely that is not controversial. :Angel:

 

i took no offence to your statement. but i do find it incredible that you think that only two counters out of countless deserve to be taken seriously. what about ouchi-gaeshi and kouchi-gaeshi? they're counters to a leg sweep. and uchi-mata-gaeshi.
and anyway, your statement that foot sweeps are the height of skill belongs on this thread
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21521&goto=newpost

say: foot sweeps are the height of skill
mean: i'm rubbish at throws


i know of no-one who honestly thinks foot sweeps are the 'height' of skill, except you. sure they're good and they require good timing to be effective but alot of judo techniques require alot more skill to perform.

 

Footsweeps are the height of skill because they do not require power. Timing and rhythm, the ultimate in Judo (choisi-waza). And in that sense uchi-mata sukashi and tsubami gaeshi also reflect those aspects of timing, rhythm, balance and skill. Other counters do not.

If you know no-one apart from me who promotes the skill of sweeps...I don't see your point.

Of course there are many aspects to Judo, but skill is always skill. And the greatest skill can be seen in these moves when done properly.

Maximum efficiency, minimum effort=footsweep, and to counter that with another sweep is Judo squared. Lifting a bag of potatoes and gruntingly twisting it over your falling body is a skill as well.

Opinions differ though.

 

no move in judo requires 'power' as such. power is just used to compound the effect. just about every counter can be done with very minimal strength. if done right. as you say, its all about timing, rhythm and technique.

i wasn't disputing the skill of foot sweeps, i just said that they wasn't the 'height' of skill.
my point about not knowing of anyone other than you who thinks foot sweeps are the height of skill, is...who are you? i've trained with many a high ranked judoka including neil adams (7th dan, BJA), fred pilgrim (6th dan, BJA), chris goodwin (6th dan AJA)...... i could go on but those are the most note worthy. none of them seem to think foot sweeps are the height of skill.

i disagree, i see far more skill in throws. in particular the seoi-nage throws and the founders favorite move uke-goshi.

i dont see how you arrive at this conclusion, uki-otoshi (for example) requires far less effort than a leg sweep.

well if this is your experince of tanio toshi, i simpathise. true it can be done like this but it can also be done with grace, and very little power.

yes they do.