Are Catholics Christian?

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by GoldShifter, Apr 19, 2013.

  1. GoldShifter

    GoldShifter The MachineGun Roundhouse

    WBC is very aggressive in their approach toward certain issues, and I've seen that one of the children in the WBC was disowned because she challenged their beliefs, from doing her own research, she found that some of the teachings weren't ever said in the Bible.

    I like to use James 2:14-25 to justify that works are needed and hence is why the Catholic Church puts a good emphasis. Almost all of the people that challenged me said, "Well, I like to think that ________ is what this verse means."

    I haven't confronted the teacher yet, but I don't plan to. I don't plan to try to go into an argument anymore with the people who challenge me about Catholicism. And for those who wonder, I do go to a Catholic Church, but I go to a Protestant school. This argument came about because I was explaining why I couldn't run because I wasn't a "born-again" Christian (or taken out from their words, Protestant), and the teacher asked, "Is there any other Christian denomination that isn't [Protestant]" I replied that Catholics were Christian. He begs to differ and then I asked him his views, and he got really fired up about the whole subject. I do really bad against personal attacks especially on race, religion, family, friends, during an argument, I get really heated and cannot think. I couldn't come up with a legitimate answer to him very easily, it took me very long, and he overwhelmed me with his wall of words. Then this guy named Christian, haha, has grown up in a Catholic School, and transfered over in late elementary way back when(we're in highschool, junior year), so he believes he has the right to make fun of Catholics because of his "knowledge" of them. The teacher was a former assistant pastor so he knows his things too. Christian likes this teacher because they share the same views. Another former teacher, thought that Catholics are Christian, but always challenged my views. Christian hated this former teacher because of the "condescending" tone that the teacher talked with, but Christian hated this teacher so much that he didn't bother to look deeper into it. The teacher wasn't condescending in the least, it just seemed that way to Christian. Christian also didn't like this teacher because of their differing views on the Catholic question.

    Man, sorry this is just becoming a rant, and also backstory, so I'll stop here. Apologies for the wall of text. I like the one where somebody told me to have the challengers go into any Catholic Church, look above the altar, and see who is there. That is a good one, and also very clever. No rebuttal, just a statement that if they want to continue this argument, they would have to go first to a church.

    Speaking of that, the guy named Christian said to that, "Oh we don't have Jesus on the cross because he was taken off and rose from the dead." I tried to tell him that it was a reminder of what he did for our sake, but he wouldn't buy it. This was last year, or two years ago. This has been going on for a while, but I have decided to put a stop to it here, on my end. If they want to challenge it, I don't want to argue, if they believe something then sure, they have the right in the USA, unless it is something blatantly wrong like, "Oh the Catholic Church promotes the death penalty." Turning the other cheek so to speak.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2013
  2. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Dead bodies are very strange to a great many Protestants, and in their defense it really does tell only half the story.

    I think the Orthodox have the right balance: the dead body on the cross is never seen apart from the empty cross and tomb. Icons are more traditional than a statue on a giant cross, but the point is that if they display the crucified body, they display the resurrected body or the empty tomb. One by itself is only half a story. You need both.
     
  3. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Paul the Apostle was a lot worse than most people today before his conversion. I think we'll be okay.
     
  4. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    And if Jesus trained in Wing Chun, we'd all be in trouble trying to figure out that controversy.
     
  5. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    Oddly enough, you can liken this situation to MA's, many believe the more simplistic that something is, the better... whether it be MA or religion. I don't believe in one person not being "christian" or "catholic". When Jesus was born and He taught, He broke down the 10 commandments into 2 very simple ones. Love the Lord with all of your heart, soul, and mind. 2nd, love your neighbor as yourself. If you do these 2 things, you won't kill people, you won't steal, you won't do all of the other things that were listed in the 10 commandments. So are the 10 commandments wrong? No, of course not. They have just been simplified.

    Pastors and teachers have the idea that throwing out all of these big words and such to us to make us believe exactly as they do. Hey, a lot of these guys are smart, but they are NOT God.

    To your question.. IMO Catholics pray to dead saints... their hearts are in the right place, but the Bible clearly states "No one comes to the Father but through Me" which Jesus told us. There isn't much else you can take from that. This is one of the things I find incorrect. The Catholics are nuts over the Pope... you know what? The Pope is probably a GREAT man and again, his heart is probably in the right place as well, but he is not to be worshipped. You see people who rush to see him in his carriage, you see people who treat the man as if he is Christ Himself. This, IMO is absolutely wrong "Thou shalt not put any other false God's before Me". You can think the Pope is a great man, it's ok to want to live like him, or to meet him, but a false God can be anything. Once you become obsessed with ANYTHING, it becomes a god as such. It doesn't have to be something you worship or a shrine you bow to. The Catholics however do believe in God and in Christ. They believe that Jesus rose from the dead, they believe all of the things that will get you into Heaven from the standards set by Biblical principal. They are not all correct, nor are they all wrong.

    Listen, I no longer believe in downing anyone's belief system. Think of Bruce Lee for instance. The more I read and have watched him, you can almost think of religion as the same way he believed in MA's. Make it simple. Bruce said "I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times". Simplicity is the way to keep things and the knowledge and mind set of very simple core moral values is what gets you to that next relationship with Christ, just like many now believe when it comes to MA's. Keep it simple.

    Getting into arguments and debates will get you nowhere. You, as a believer are here to live right and to set an example to those around you to want what you have in that peace and love we all strive for (and as a follower of Christ I admit I am HORRIBLE at) so just do what you would do in an altercation on the street... walk away from it. Let people persecute you or make fun of you for walking away. Your gift in return will be hundreds of times greater than anything else.

    As far as your comment on being "born again"... if you have accepted Jesus into your heart as your Saviour, then you are born again... does the word "christian" have to be right behind that? Nope. Just accepting what he did (which it sounds like based on your thoughts on the cross) tells me you believe obviously. Just invite Christ to live in your heart, tell someone about it and that's it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2013
  6. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    When did the practice begin? Have you considered whether the people who decided what makes up the Bible, and then handcopied it so that you would have that nice leather-bound gold-leafed Zondervan, themselves developed and passed on the practice of prayer to saints? I'm pretty sure they did, and that makes me wonder why they didn't see a contradiction. And I wonder, too, how come Martin Luther endorsed the practice, if it was so wrong. Indeed, it was put it into Sunday liturgy. Prayer to saints has been part of Sunday worship in the original trunks of Christianity at least as long as there has been a Bible, if not longer. That is really odd to me if, as you say, it so blatantly contradicts the New Testament.


    Billy Graham?
    Greg Laurie and his Harvest Crusades?
    Chuck Smith and all his radio shows?
    Rick Warren?
    Other mega-church preachers?
    Maybe the Protestants have multiple false gods by the same definition!!!!
     
  7. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    Martin Luther was still a former catholic himself. I didn't say I was correct and everyone else was wrong. I quoted what the Bible tells us. I'm sorry, but I don't see Billy Graham and the others you mentioned being worshipped like the Pope is. However, if the people do... yes, they are just as wrong. I didn't say the Pope was wrong for the people acting this way either. You either did not read exactly what I wrote, or are attempting to twist it.

    I tell things straight as I think or as I believe. The NT in every version I have read says " NO ONE comes to the Father but through Me". A person can take that whatever way they want, which is why talking about religion or politics with someone who has a different opinion is quite pointless. It's the whole, you should believe like me because..... or this is wrong because when I was 12 a pastor told me ...... We get older and learn to look at what is right there. Not some hidden meaning. That doesn't exist.
     
  8. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    (1) But the question that Protestants never answer is, "By what authority do you interpret the Bible?" All of the thousands of denomination disagree with one another over this verse or that verse. No matter what position you take, there are several pastors in other denominations standing before their Sunday pulpits preaching that you are wrong. None of them can state their authority for doing so other than, "But God speaks to me!" (Every cult leader says the same thing, right? It's not a real answer.)

    Without authority, they made it up. Plain and simple. They had no involvement at all in the writing or the assembling of the Bible. They just pulled it off the shelf after the fact, and made something up. That is why they all come out with conflicting interpretations.

    (2) The Pope is not "worshipped." To not see that -- I don't know what to say. You missed something important.


    Whoa, bad choice. Slow down. The Bible verse you chose is not relevant to what Catholics are doing. That means that you're making up a "strawman" argument instead of addressing their official doctrine and approved practice.

    You'll see that when you consider their point of view. From what you just said, heard through their ears, you must never have asked a family member, or a friend, or a pastor, to pray for you, because, hey, that'd be going through someone other than Jesus, and just you said the Bible forbids that. You must not want Billy Graham, Chuck Smith, Greg Laurie, etc. etc., to pray for you, because, hey, that'd be going through someone other than Jesus, and you just said the Bible forbids that.

    That's their point of view. I don't know how you can reconcile your interpretation of that verse with the NT verses urging that we pray for one another, but that's your problem.
     
  9. GoldShifter

    GoldShifter The MachineGun Roundhouse

    Whoa, was just about to say that, "then what happens when people pray for you?" Lol, then I read more and saw your post lol. Yeah I think the pope is well respected much like when a Grandmaster or Great Grandmaster visits your school, the students flock to him to either, shake his hand, or to find out some words of wisdom from him.
     
  10. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    I love the analogy! I'm going to steal it for future use and pretend I thought of it myself! :happy:

    We could also say its akin to politics. The election of the President is a global affair in terms of coverage because of his influence, but a local affair in terms of who actually votes. The election of a Pope is a global affair in both coverage and votes, so its bigger in a sense. If you voted for the President and he comes to town, of course its a big deal and of course you want to be at the event. I admit that I would want to be at a presidential event. It's a similar idea when the Pope comes to town.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2013
  11. Saved_in_Blood

    Saved_in_Blood Valued Member

    I actually don't have any problem. I don't ask for people's prayers. What someone praying for someone else has to do with praying to a dead saint that, while they are likely in Heaven, doesn't have the power to correct me or my life based on what the Bible tells us. Here again, one may twist the words as much as they want... I look at the black and white. It says flat out the verse that I have quoted. Honestly though, it's not worth the time to continue to debate with you or anyone else simply because you will always feel you're correct, and I will go with what I have read.

    I do hope the OP gets everything straight however and keeps in mind that it's not based on a sole denomination, but it's based on the person. What does the Bible say about how to get into Heaven or how to live your life? Follow that to what YOU believe, not what I tell you or anyone else. Read the words and then ponder them, let the meaning come to you, but try to look at what's written there and not what I, anyone else here, or anyone in your daily life says influence what the text says.
     
  12. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    AikiMac, if the Nicene Creed is the litmus test for Christianity then what about the early followers of Christ before the Creed was written.

    In addition you call those who say God speaks to me Cult Leaders but what about those folk who God does speak to? The authority of the church is no more valid or less valid than that of any modern day prophet. I find it hard to believe that a God who controlled people to the point of dietary laws and fashion has suddenly gone mute.
     
  13. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    Saved, what you are doing is not black and white. Unless you are reading these verses in the original language with a deep understanding of the concepts, beliefs and the thinking processes of the time then you are reading those passages through the filters and prejudices of the translator and you own modern belief systems.

    Hardly black and white at all.
     
  14. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Fair question, but easy to answer when you look at it historically. The Nicene Creed was written because there was a conflict. Before the council decision, everyone was equally right, because there was no authoritative answer to point to. To use a science analogy, the council meeting was the experimentation process and the Nicene Creed is the resulting scientific law. Before the experiments are finished we don't know for sure what the outcome will be, so everyone is equally right and equally wrong at the same time. Afterwards, though, we know.

    The Nicene Creed was lengthened at the 2nd council, and then re-affirmed at several successive councils. Consider that the appeal process in law, or later tests in science. It's a done deal now.


    No, what I said (or at least, what I meant) is that someone who reads the Bible for himself his own way and considers his interpretation to be the authoritative truth of God, is not doing anything different than what a cult leader does.


    It's post #51. SavedInBlood has just created a gazillion autonomous sovereign spokesmen for what is supposed to be one single God who wrote one single book. Those gazillion autonomous little "kings" never have, never will, and flat out CANNOT agree on what that one lone God says now, said in the past, or wrote in that book. They can't. He just demonstrated it by his appeal to self as the authority. But yet, supposedly, each one of those autonomous sovereign speakers for God knows what the "Good Book" says. Each one of them knows what God said and meant and means today. Indeed, in point of fact, each one of them is by definition right, but only in his own little kingdom.

    Therein is the key. Each one of them is absolutely correct, as a matter of definition, but only in his own world. Walk across the street into another sovereign autonomous church, and "truth" changes.
    That is a fail-proof counter-argument against Protestantism.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2013
  15. AZeitung

    AZeitung The power of Grayskull

    Dulia, hyperdulia, or latria? Actually, the pope gets none of those, anyway.
     
  16. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    Don't you guys think that if there was but one God who wrote but one book with only one valid interpretation the He would be slightly clearer about which one it was?

    I would think He would want His people to know what the truth was and that there would be no confusion over His word.

    I mean God can create the entire Universe and everything in it but can't figure out how to tell everyone what His wishes are in clear unambiguous terms?

    Actually I find it to be a fail-proof counter-argument against Christianity as a whole.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2013
  17. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    I hear you, really. The argument is so much better, though, if confined to Catholics versus Orthodox. This is one of only 2 or 3 arguments for atheism that I respect. It's a good one.

    And then mystics come along, and I see chinks in the armor. :dunno:
     
  18. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    Well if we consider that we are not supposed to worship any false gods or idols before God then I think God made it pretty clear. No man or woman on Earth can possibly conceive of a being that is capable of creating the whole of existence and not just what we perceive of being our universe.

    I think it's pretty clear worship is not what God expects of us if God expects anything at all.
     
  19. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Well somebody made him up so it must have happened at least once.
     
  20. aikiwolfie

    aikiwolfie ... Supporter

    Bit of an incomplete picture though. And for the sake of the thread I'm assuming God exists.

    So assuming God exists. What would God really be like?
     

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