Applications To Poomse

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by StuartA, Jan 7, 2014.

  1. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    As you probably would have guessed, I`m with PASmith on this one. A move is a move, whether its a left hook or a low block being used as an application (that isnt a low block obviously).

    I dont think I explained it properly before - in the example I gave - right cross, left hook, stamp - the right cross and left hook were the '1 app' even though they are two separate techniques - 2 = 1 because as we discussed, a single pattern technique is often doing more than one thing each time. Take a low block as a choke takedown - the first part of the move is an 'elbow strike' to the jaw - this is the chamber - it softens the target up for the final part of the move, as the choke - but, if the elbow didnt work as well as it should have, then the choke may not work well enough either, and thus we might use another strike - with the punches, this could be equated to if the 'right crossed' missed, then the left hook may not be the optimum technique to use. Consequently, if we did get as far as the choke or left hook - if either didnt work and the opponent didn't go down, we wouldn't use the 'stamp' or a 2nd application (that may of flowed in the pattern), but something different.

    I think the whole idea of training patterns is/was to remove as much 'conscious effort' as possible.. it just that they are often not done enough to do that anymore (and of course the focus for them these days is all wrong too), so yes, in the early stages conscious thought is required - but the idea is that its not (with training).

    The example you gave (the pattern video) is a poor choice - simply because its a guy doing a solo pattern which has a defined rhythm (as per the orgs requirements) and applications do not adhere to the same speed of execution.

    But yes, you are right that a left hook is seen just as it is.. and is not the same as interpreting pattern apps... thats just how it is cos of their history.

    Stuart
     
  2. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    I guess saying a move is a move like picking a frying pan up is a move and a left hook is a move, I agree with. Comparing a left hook for combat with a pattern move, I'm still surprised anyone would say they are the same.
    Right cross, left hook as one app? The chamber is the defensive/hand fight/clinch element. No chamber ,of the top of my head is a strike. Yea in theory and low intense demos but not actually usable.

    I don't mind being the stupid one and say I don't see the low block/ choke app or it working in a real situation. It's pretty far fetched.
     
  3. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    The comparison is of combative moves, both have to be trained. Slightly different from your frying pan example.

    No ones saying they are the same as in identical techniques - just both are (2) combative movements, that need to be trained and work much better when trained. Have you trained any apps btw? (And I don't mean simply tried them, I mean actually trained them for long periods/multiple times like your other techniques). Maybe a better to understand comparison would of been a shoulder throw.. like an app, in the beginning it takes a few steps to execute it - but with consistent training it flows much better and without training it will rarely work (if at all).

    The application I mentioned is a common one (for me anyway), as its taught with Saju Jirugi. Perhaps you are not as well informed as you like to believe! More-so if you believe every chamber had to be as you state it above, as that is not so! The app mentioned is a close ranged app utilised from a vertical grappling position.

    You say it won't work (even though you cannot imagine the app), but does an elbow work at close range? Does a collar choke? - that that is essentially the app broken down!

    Stuart
     
  4. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I wonder what sort of punch Marciano is throwing here?
    A right hook maybe?
    Because, you know, it looks for all the world like some sort of elbow strike to me.
    Nah...can't be....a punch is just a punch. :)

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Pattern moves are done a certain way and that's that...in patterns. But every single application guy I've looked into stresses that in reality things may need to be tweaked or adapted as needed. Targets changed, levels changed, striking surface sometimes changed, sometimes the trajectory changing a bit, repeat part 1 until part 2 becomes a more viable option, etc etc.
     
  6. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    Dam.. if he didn't have gloves on and they had jackets he'd of been able to pull off the app I mentioned, no problem ;)

    Gotta say also - Dude.. where do you get these pic! Awesome.

    Stuart
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2014
  7. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    I know that no one is saying they are the same.
    Is there a clip of a pattern move or moves being used with the same intensity,speed, violent intent, and with a similar outcome (knockouts or knockdown) as the clip of left hooks?
    Then the difference can be analysed more or your points as to the similarities will be clearer.

    I'm not bothered if you think or don't think I know anything or train or whatever, im saying what I genuinely believe at this time . No authority no matter who they are or what they say beats actually experience which is why trAining to fight at realistic intensity makes it obvious what will and won't work and what could of been what or what's nonsense.

    Got a clip of this low block app at realistic intensity and flowing like a right cross left hook? It would be easier to discuss.

    A chamber or pattern move can not be a variety of different things. The original idea would of had to of been one thing that someone attempted to put into a form. Looking at it another way, you don't have people saying an arm bar, when done standing up could be a the movement for a strike....or this or that...or an uppercut could be a throw if your in the clinch....It's just not plausible.
     
  8. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    Clutching at straws is a phrase that springs to mind.
     
  9. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    I guess anyone can change anything and say it's a move out of a pattern. How convenient.
    I also baked a cake and some of those moves resembled some pattern moves. Who would have thought it.
     
  10. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    I don't know.. but if there are, they are few and far between because no sport contest I know has rules that enable their use AFAIA, so its pretty hard to make a video like the one that is of a sport who's rules dictate the hook punch is used very often! There are other reasons for lack of such video, but that's another discussion really.


    Well, feel free to trawl through CCTV footage on Youtube and see if anythings available. Of the people I know who practice them on a regular basis, I don't know if any of them have had to defend themselves recently, most of them are pretty sensible guys/gals and would probably avoid a confrontation, but if they did, I havnt seen their CCTV footage if they have it! - Sorry.

    First of all, thats not what I said (or implied) - I know you train fighting stuff to a good intensity etc., no question there. I simply asked about your experience with application training - whether you had just 'tried one out' or if you had actually drilled any for a reasonable length of time before forming the opinions you have? Its kind of like someone (a TKD guy perhaps) seeing a shoulder throw, then trying it out once or twice, where by it would fail and dismissing the throw as unworkable. now, if he had practiced it 1,000 times and it still didnt work.. then okay!

    Look.. you seem to keep missing this point time and time again (is it deliberate?).. but if I`m "IN" a fight, I will punch, kick, knee, elbow etc etc. the same as you and anyone else - however, if I read a precursor to a fight correctly and act accordingly, then I could possibly end it before it begins - but it would all depend on the situation. Say for example someone grabs you by the throat - that is not a 'fight' per se... so say you twist out of it and lock up their arm, then break it - the fight is ended before it began properly. Or would the preferable route be to loosen from the grip and then exchange blows instead?

    Nope.. sorry, but its not hard to visualize - as I said, its simply an elbow, followed by a collar choke! I probably do have a clip of it somewhere from a seminar, but not at the intensity you want obviously.

    Why not?

    Sure.. I believe this was the 'original' idea of it all as well.. but unfortunately, even by-passing the TKD patterns.. there is no documentation that exists that can verify what the very original kata move/s were for - they were all destroyed in the bombing of Okinawa or not passed on etc. So giving a few options doesnt seem a bad idea to me - then people can select what they feel is best and appropriate for them. And of course, it isnt always 'the' 'one' move that dictate things, but the sequence of moves and they are often different!

    I wouldn't know... but wouldn't an arm-bar standing up also be considered an armlock which can also be considered an arm-break or a restraining hold!! Some may also see it as a 9-Shape block ;)

    Stuart
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2014
  11. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Just making a point. Marciano was well known for using the hook punch motion to add a little elbow action into things.
    Adapting a motion to another end.
    Some boxers also do things like turning the hand or wrist to land where there's less padding.

    Just trying to show that even amongst the supposedly pure "a hook is just a hook" boxing world there is variation in application.
     
  12. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    That their are no clips of these applications says it all and shows the difference between what we are saying.
    I am also not implying that no one learns to fight who does applications. I am saying that it doesnt show because the applications should be the things you see in fights. Thats the irony.
    Whoever first decided to put their experiences into forms first had lots of fights. Probably challenges,,possibly they just liked fighting...possibly it was just more violent times with no modern weapons to use( eg reliable guns etc etc) so all of it would just be fighting. it would not be as sophisticated as modern fighters but it would generaly be plain old fighting.
    Other things in forms as they change or move around cultures are simply internal awarness excercises or just excersises or symbols of that culture put in some kind in motion. These are the things not meant to be for fighting and so end up being silly applications that wont work.
    The rest should resemble those things seen in fights and should be able to be usable at fight intensity. If it cant its likely useless or the wrong thing. As the diagrams have changed so much it doesnt matter..its the individual moves that count not the sequence.

    The irony is that to see any usefull applications or use them a person has to be able to fight and learning to fight or they dont see the link. What you get then is just ideas and things that obviously will not work at high intensitys. Or applications that miss the important details. Pattern apps should not be SD stuff that cannot be shown because its too illiegal for sports or something......thats where things get silly. Of course there is naughty stuff like breaking arms or something but competative things like catch as can or sub wrestling has some pretty nasty stuff that can still be used to a degree in a contest. People tap in lots of sport contest and if they didnt they would have broken limbs or be unconsiouse.
    The problem is that people see a fighter, like say machida, do something that resembles a pattern move and use that to justify the pattern or the app...but the fighter did what they did through fighting. It could be said that the original creator wanted to express a similar idea but they only got that idea through fighting...is it totaly wrong to say the pattern taught the fighter.

    People will substitute the pattern or the app for learning to fight. Or because they dont know a certain element of fighting, eg hand fighting/clinching, to a good enough level they will end up with things that just wont work.

    There is nothing in any form or pattern that can not be learnt through fighting so forms and patterns as a learning aid are useless but it has to be acknowledged that somewhere in them ,are elements of fighting. But that doesnt justify doing patterns apps or patterns for combatative usefullness.

    Apps could only be one thing because its like saying a right hook is also a choke just because they share movements like both involve bending at the elbow or something. Its just not plausable. The details that make one a hook and one a choke are too different.
    A standing arm bar would use the same fundamentals as an arms bar....you wouldnt use the movement for an armbar to strike which is the kind of thing your implying by saying a chamber is a strike..or a lock...or whatever.

    So.. I have looked at apps before and trained them and would of agreed with most being said but dont need to now IMO as I learn to fight and
    as I learn to fight and am able to look at apps and form an opinion on if its plauasable or not. I say most chambers are hand fighting/ covering/ clinching as thats a view I have got from those more knowledgebale than me and its the most plausable thing but im not justifying or saying that people should do apps or deliberatly chamber.MT guys 'chamber' all the time in fights but they are not doing apps or patterns.
    So.. it still comes back to learning to fight, then afterwards if one was to look at patterns they would realise what is a more plausible meaning of a move and they should not use that to justifty doing apps but go back to fighting IMO.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2014
  13. WhiteDragonD

    WhiteDragonD New Member

    I have noticed to find applications to poomsae the best way is to watch old obscure Taekwondo videos. Usually stuff in the 80s and 90s. Even absolutly silly stuff like that Taekwondo step by step series. You have to watch for it in random places. Also the Kukkiwon DVDs for poomsae shows ome good, realistic applications.
    Also study some old karate books that use the same movements of Taekwondo and use their bunkai.

    NEVER make up your OWN applications because people who do that usually are not smart enough to tell people a good self defense technique. Only if it actually makes sense and is useful and logical can you come up with ideas. One guy I saw on youtube said at the end of Tae Guk O Jang there is the stepping backfist and its an entry for a throw. I think that is absolutely ridiculous and ignorant and makes no sense for the feet position is sooo wrong for a casual throw. I studied Judo so I would know.



    have a nice day!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 16, 2014
  14. StuartA

    StuartA Guardian of real TKD :-)

    No.. its what you are saying. I agree in part (that clips are rare), but the reasoning of why that is it what i disagree with. As I said, its another discussion, but since you seem want/need expansion, I`ll give my reasoning why -
    1. Patterns applications are a relatively new thing.
    2. Of those that practice them whole-heartidly - its an even smaller thing.
    3. And as I said, of those, few if any compete in sport or get in regular street fights.
    4. No sport contest I know of a) allows many such things.. but more to the point b) has better stuff to which to win by (and its not just about KO's but the points rewarded etc.) - I do TKD comps.. winning would not be obtained by applications!
    5. Most of the 'fight' techniques you would approve of, also appear in common sporting formats - where-as 'app' related stuff does not - making it uncommon.
    - So all the above explains why so little video exsists of applications being used in a full on fight type senerio (as you require).

    With the above said, lets look at some other technqiues that commonly are not used or not allowed in sport events, such as knifehands and eye- gouges - both very effective SD techniques. Show me your 'montage' type clips of those! And these are techniques that have long been around before the resurgence of application work! Also, when I did show you a video of a knifehand (or forearm smash) in action, as a street combative technique (ages back0 you dismissed it, one way or another - so I get the feeling that you would be very hard to please no matter what!

    And if you have read ANY thing I said, neither do I!!!!

    Sure - and that 'snarly, scared, cauliflower earred' fighter considered putting all his experience into a different way to practice as a good and beneficial way of passing things on and practicing himself.. when he wasn't fighting - right?

    Okay - I agree that can be the case. Please tell me which parts of the TKD patterns you know for certain these parts are? Or are you just guessing they are because you don't understand them?

    Hmmm.. your really not listening to me are you or you refuse to acknowledge that fights have precursors and thats where these things are most beneficial - not 'in-fight' per se!

    I`m sure some apps can be used in a 'sporting' based contest no doubt, but its really down to the individual and the rules IMO and as I said in the points above, if it would even be benficial to use one at all in those circumstances.

    Or you could say (if you had an open mind) that despite the original stuff being clouded over time, somehow an application got through even if Machida didnt realise it, as he practices that stuff in kata - its a matter of perspective. me, personally, I would use sport as an example for any of my stuff, as I don't feel its the proper environment in which it would be used.

    Funnily enough, people don't (in my experience). You have two sides.. those that just see patterns as a dance type thing - solo exercise for varying reasons, but mainly for comps, gradings and standard run of the mill training (ala basic TKD) and those that are in to them much more, drill them, practice them etc. and funnily enough, those types of students seem to diversify their training a lot more. Meaning, even if they don't train stuff as 'standard' in their own classes (which of course they should), they get guys in to teach a bit of MMA or MT or Throws etc. Funny how it opens minds a bit and thus makes them more rounded for the 'fight'! Though of course, if minimalist grappling skills are found through some pattern apps, thats still better than no skills at all!

    Hmm.. sure.. I can go with that.. what justifies doing pattern apps, is what many have said all along and thats the simple fact that TKD requires patterns - there are no exceptions - so apps simply make that area more productive. Actually, there are things in patterns that you probibly wouldnt seen in standard 'fight' training, so, no, I won't go with that after all - thats not to say they 'can't' be trained outside of patterns, just that they are not - when was the last time you trained eye-gouging for example or muscle ripping?

    Your example (again) is flawed - apps were purposly hidden, where as (despite PASmiths example) a right hook wasnt! And yes, I do say a chamber can be used as a strike - the fundamentals (in the previous example I gave before) are exactly the same, which isn't the same thing as the arm-bar example you give!

    You are looking at apps from your POV - which is fine - but its not the same POV I look at them at. That is crystal clear by your continued thought process of 'in-fight' examples - mine are (mostly) 'pre-fight' examples, you don't seem to distinguish or acknowledge the difference - where as I do. After all, 'if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail' - a well known quote that i think sums it up pretty well!

    Who? I've studied apps/patterns (probibly) for longer and more in depth than you (and I mean no offense by that), so who are these people? I`m telling you that isnt the case 'all' the time - yet you don't take my word for anything!

    Chambers can be different for different things. its just a term used in patterns for the (so called) preperation part of a technique.. in other systems a chamber (and even in TKD, away from patterns) it means something similar, but not with the same connatations as when they are involved in 'apps'.

    And yet all TKD must still learn the patterns and thus, to make them more productive, they should learn pattern applications IMO.

    Now, let me ask you some questions:
    Where are the videos of the kick boxers or Thai Boxers or even MMA guys employing knifehand strikes?
    Why don't they do them?
    Where's all the lows kicks to the knees in MT or MMA? (surely that's a better target for ending a fight than going for the 'now conditioned' thigh)
    Why doesnt an MMA guy just stick his thumb in the opponents eye when he's on top of him or use a claw squeeze?
    Where are all these videos of these 'effective' SD techniques to prove to me they actually work?

    Stuart
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2014
  15. SJON

    SJON Valued Member

    Repeated/deleted.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2014
  16. SJON

    SJON Valued Member

    Perhaps I'm missing the joke, but I'll take it at face value (numbering and bold highlighting mine):

    1. Really? Hahahahahahaha!!!
    2. What? Hahahahahahaha!!!
    3. Was that me? If so, I have done quite a bit of Judo too, and besides, that wasn't a Judo throw. If you weren't referring to me (see first page of this thread for the videoclip), then I apologise.

    Best regards,

    Simon

    PS: I thought your last blog post was good.
     
  17. SJON

    SJON Valued Member

    I have little to add to the discussion as it stands. It’s fairly clear that there are crossed purposes at work and I don’t have the time to keep going round and round.

    So how about I throw a bit more fuel on the fire?

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdvkLIdt2Ug"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdvkLIdt2Ug[/ame]

    Now, I doubt there can be many objections in this case to the application itself, which is a fairly straightforward one-two, other than that:

    1. I called it an “application”, which seems to cause a knee-jerk contrary reaction in some of our esteemed colleagues.
    2. I used the “block” as a strike, which would mean I broke the sacred “it is what it’s called” law.
    3. I demonstrate the solo form with the blocking arm outside the chambering arm, but the app with the blocking arm on the inside. This is actually how it was originally taught in the “lineage” I come from.

    So, let’s cut to the chase, the element that I suspect someone is going to jump on straight away: the static, crossed-hands starting point. Earlier in the DVD (not shown in this clip) I explain the reason for starting like this – it’s just a platform for training certain techniques at a given range, from a “frozen point in time” – but I can already hear the protests: Nobody starts a fight like that! Nobody stands still while you cross hands with them and then hit them! No, of course they don’t.

    But don’t the revered, street-effective, demonstrated-at-full-force-many-times-over-and-captured-on-video combat sports also use many drills in training that start from a static pose, with the purpose of isolating a particular skill? Of course they do.

    Cheers,

    Simon
     
  18. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Valued Member

    IMNSHO in a real world severe threat situation using your left to overhook his right is a waste of time . Just strike with your left or your right Selecting any available Weapon to Attack available Target. KISS
     
  19. SJON

    SJON Valued Member

    Hi Earl.

    You are entirely entitled to YNSHO and whichever other acronyms you can muster, of course, but IMNSHO, taking control of the opponent's limbs (specifically the right arm, which is most people's "big gun") at close range at the same time as you strike him is a rather good idea.

    Best regards,

    Simon
     
  20. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    Applications are new?
    In the world of TKD maybe. Is that what you mean?
    Because Japanese, Okinawa and Chinese systems have been around for a longer time than Tkd and hAve been studied.
    TKD patterns are poor cousins to these arts and so far removed from the original intent and ideas that to fully understand them you need to understand the systems they originate from. That tkd guys don't know enough about these systems, especially the Okinawa and Chinese systems ,means you get these ridiculous ideas for what things are. Practitioners of these systems are where I am informed from and these people don't even know the real answers....No one does for sure. It's all lost and muddled up. So to answer what I think is what , I'm happy to say I don't know fully or have the answers and neither do you. But it's pretty clear that some things are just not usable. To try to make them so just because they are their in the patterns is not plausible and it shows when they are things that cannot be used at realistic intensity or in real fight time.
    What is known is that the forms were an attempt to store the things someone experienced in fights. So as humans have not changed the way they move fundamentally ,that drastically, it can be suggested that to get a more realistic idea of the forms , a person has to leArn to fight also....then they don't need the forms as they have their own experiences.

    I understand that you are saying that most apps are used as pre-cursors to fights, I simply disagree.

    You say apps were purposely hidden? Do you mean in the context of TKD or the systems it's related to?
    What things in patterns are you claiming cannot be found in others styles that have full contact spars or contest? We have had eye gouging and knife hands...What else?

    Eye gouging is against the rules and so is kicking the knee and also who would want to do these things in a competitive contest? Knife hands are not used as they are not as effective as the things you actually see used. Vale tudo fights allow them if anyone wanted to but they don't for the above reason.
    Plus the shAping of the hand or the target of the attack is irrelevant when compared to fundamentals and the delivery system and the trAining of the delivery system. A MT guy has an arsenal of low kicks that could easily target the knee if they wanted to, with great effect because they can deliver kicks very close to that area. In fact round kicks that target to the back of the knee might be allowed in thai rules,I'm not sure. They are trained in MT gyms at least.
    MMA guys or grapplers hAve the delivery system and positioning skills to dominate and get superior position to gouge the eyes ,if they wanted.
    Many systems have back fists or hacking punches, especially old school boxing, that follow a similar path to a knife hand strike ....the difference is the shaping of the hand. But their delivery system ,of boxing or kickboxing is more efficient than patterns, so it doesn't matter what shape the hand is.
    What is so special about a knife hand that makes it so deadly?

    A solid delivery system is still required if a person wanted to rely on knee kicks, eye gouges or knife hand strikes, so they are not sure fire effective SD techniques on their own. Plus just because a knee kick could be effective in SD and is not allowed in most sporting contests, it does not justify all applications you claim can't be used in sporting contests are effective.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2014

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