Ap Chagi ---> Su Gi

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by SsangKall, May 2, 2010.

  1. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    ju muk maga kbs, kun dae ryeon, too gi, bak su, maek chigi/chagi, etc. all involve a partner kicking then punching. so i am lumping them together as a series for some discussion.

    i enjoy the 'x' block and mantis trap/parry, but i was wondering if anybody used any alternatives. from my two semesters in aikido long ago i have learned to use one arm to block high/mid punces and neck chops/hooks and either clockwise or counter-clockwise wrap. the problem comes with control afterwards; it just feels loose compared to the control gained with an 'x' block or mantis trap/parry. i would be lying though if i didn't feel a little exposed when an opponent is facing me and they have an extra limb to use...

    thoughts, ideas?
  2. Out-to-Lunch

    Out-to-Lunch Valued Member

    Are you referring to entry methods in Aiki like that used in Kaiten Nage??

    Thanks :)
  3. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, irimi nage, tenchi nage, kaiten nage, any of them really, josh. i really only was introduced to uppercut, neck chop, and straight punch variations though. the pregunta is more of a open ended type... cross block, mantis, or single hand to wrap/trap and what is your preference. we learn em' all eventually, i just thought about cross blocking leaves your face or stomach open, but single handed requires more precision without a second hand to trap and then help redirect.

    which do you prefer? i personally don't mess around with mantis too much, but i dig the ability to push and pull that it gives you.
  4. Quozl

    Quozl Valued Member

    Hi Choladeva, as a point of clarification, I have to ask you why you think the Aikido "wrap" feels "loose"? From what I know of Aikido there is always a follow up with the second hand to gain control. Similar to any of the KS techniques where one hand is used to to start and the second hand is added to increase leverage, control, etc.

    I also think that the sense of security for the X block is very real for me, when blocking kicks especially. In KS we are not always taught to move out of the line of attack, and as such a strong block seems to me to be an answer to this. In Aikido, you are always taught to move out of the line of attack, and thus the strong block is not required. In Aikido the idea is always to re-direct the energy of the attacker to remove his balance or posture or both (whilst maintaining your own).

    I believe this is to a greater or lesser extent the same in KS, but we are not always moving out of the line of attack. Many techniques (the Kick Punch ones you describe) seem to be predominantly moving backwards in the same line of attack and blocking the initial kick, and punch. Thus the X block is quite strong and pwerful to block a kick, also allowing for a trapping of the kicking leg. But not necessarily allowing for an ease of redirection of the attackers energy.

    Where an X block is used to block a strike ... mmmm. I am not sure. I think this still lends itself to moving off the line of attack. If that is the case the circular motion you can develop should allow the redirection of the attackers energy really easily, thus disrupting the attacker's balance or posture of both ... mmm I'll have to try that some time.
  5. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    My apologies, q, my lack of skill (i learn really slow) makes the time between one hand meeting the follow up hand too long before my opponent may retract their fist. "Sticking" one wrist to the opponents until they meet another to guide them to completion doesn't sit well with me for some reason. In a way, it reminds me of when fencers parry by circling the blade around the opponents. Using two hands to trap sounds way better, but i really like the idea of doing one of the four ship ja magi's (done strong enough to stun) to a trap. Using water principle, I guess we can pull them in with a block-->trap like the undertow, step in and twist like a riptide, and execute the throw like a wave crashing down. I'll practise this more! Thanks, q!

    As for blocking a kick with an x-block (i'm thinking jok bang and jwa gi), as long as you don't get your fingers broken in the process...

    Master Yang tells us over and over and over again that the block, but the "stepping", "angle", and "twisting" happening at the same time that does the redirecting. All you then need is a solid stance and you are in the perfect position to execute the technique. It's like being the eye of a hurricane... things that of course I know actually little about, but practise to try and get a glimpse of what he is talking about.
  6. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Shin versus forearm direct (with no angular deflection at least) = no contest! Don't believe it? Go hold the Thai pads for a good Thai Boxer and see how you feel then. If you're not used to bracing correctly, your elbows will feel like the joints are going to separate. Now take away the Thai pads, if you dare, and see what happens next!
  7. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    my buddy broke his ulna blocking a full force kick. makes me think more about avoiding and countering as opposed to blocking. thanks, mr. batts!
  8. Out-to-Lunch

    Out-to-Lunch Valued Member

    "Best Block No Be There"
  9. Quozl

    Quozl Valued Member

    Hi Pugil, that's why I really like the Aikido idea of not being where the kick is landing. However, I think that an X-block would probably counter the average Joe in the street wjho isn't Muy Tai trained (LOL), I would hope anyway.

    Still prefer being not where the kick is lnding though!

    Cheers Ollie ,Sir

  10. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    also, blocking closer to the wrist(faster trap, but watch your hands!!!)or elbow will allow one to use the strongest part of the ulna/radius. most breaks happen in the middle (the weakest point) meeting stronger forces directly. how about indirectly, like when you step off the line of attack, but 'blocking' off of the line of attack.

    wow. that made no sense...im just gonna hit 'post' now.
  11. Quozl

    Quozl Valued Member

    Makes sense to me Choladeva, mate.
  12. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    in a youtube video that i can no longer locate, i saw some of master kimm he young's students doing a couple of techniques in an interesting progression. after the opponent would kick-->punch they would throw a cross (kind of like the rope technique) and a technique would be done on the arm furthest from the front leg after parrying the lead hand. being that we teach a curriculum which is supposed to get us ready for as many ****ibilities as possible, does anybody practise these? i don't, but i think it would be a great idea to start.
  13. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    FWIW, choladeva, I never learned to do a simple X-block for any of the sets where the opponent attacks with a kick/punch. Not until the black-covered 2-volumed Textbooks (for under black belt) came out did I see this simplistic approach to the defensive movement in the technique. Not that an X-block was never taught, just not in the technique sets mentioned. I'll go out on a limb and surmise it has something to do with the hard/soft aspects which kuk-sool is supposed to be based upon, which stipulate never meeting force with force, and acknowledging that redirection is a safer way to go.

    Hey, kidosool. As I once stated in another thread, this has to be some of the BEST advice ever delivered in a popular MA movie. And I still contend that it's only eclipsed by the appearance of Tamlyn Tomita in that film. ;)
  14. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    the way i see master yang do it is one hand blocks first (closer to his wrist than the center of forearm), then his free hand meets the neutralized punch as he steps off the line of attack. this is where things get strange. he does this thing where he uses this hand that meets the blocking hand and uses the top of it to twist the opponents wrist down... i try, but its wierd. when i punch at him it feels like my wrist gets locked like the initial lock of KBS #1, then he twists. i cannot emulate it yet.

    anywho, how bout that tomita? i bet she's still something special! i should probably avoid kick punch and simply 'drum technique' my opponent!
  15. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    Ask your training partner to come at you throwing random punches and see how many you can catch out of thin air! Compared to catching a single punch, from an already pre-arranged angle of attack, it is next to impossible for most people — regardless of how long they've trained. If you want to check this out still further, ask someone who has Boxed for about a year or so to throw a few shots your way, and see how you get on.

    If you can't get away, it's often much better to 'enter' (close with) your opponent in order to get to a point that's moving less fast than the hand itself. To the shoulder, for example, in order to come back out to the wrist — if, indeed, that's what you must have! Personally, I'd rather be hitting back in some manner than trying to perform X-blocks against the punches as they come in, in hope of securing the hand/wrist from one of them. Whilst it may look good in the Dojang, or in demo, etc., it is somewhat less reliable in a bar fight!

    I look at it this way: If you are laying on the floor, and someone is raining kicks in on you, you're probably not going to be trying to actively 'block' each and every kick. It is far more likely that you will either try to regain your feet (i.e. get up again), or else try to kick out at your attacker's legs, etc. Or, when unable to do either of those two things, curl up in a foetal ball and hope for the best. 'Four-Directional Cross-Blocking (Ship Ja Makki ?) just ain't gonna be a viable option in that situation I'm afraid.
  16. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    to this day i tell students that the techniques taught in our curriculum are first and foremost a means to understand how the body twists, locks, and topples and any given technique should not be seen as the be all solution. the system is a steady progression of methods to break and toss a human. when street self defense should be taught in the curriculum is still a mystery to me. is it after the ap chagi-->su gi sets, or the whole way through?
  17. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    :D I find the fact that ANYONE would actually believe sipja-makki to be a "viable option" extremely amusing. The way I see it, by drilling the four directions (up, down, left, right) concentrating on moving the arm articulation at the shoulder, then all the appropriate muscles will get worked and toned so that *circle* blocks will become effective enough for use in a real situation. Blocks moving in a circular fashion rather than in a straight line also allow a greater chance to transform your defense into using a grasp via the mantis grip (some may view outward blocks which transform into a grab as a natural thing, but it's still the application of the mantis principle if you ask me). Moving in close as Pugil suggests should cut off the use of hand/foot combos and if your objective is to grapple, then eliminating the striking game (especially nullifying the STRONGEST thing they can hit you with) should be part of the plan.

    What I find interesting is that kuk-sool doesn't emphasize things which are undoubtedly part of the fighting structure, but can be seen in arts such as kempo. I've had more than one kempo black belt say that by studying kuk-sool they were better able to comprehend what they had been taught previously, as the *finesse* in the joint-locks which is present in kuk-sool was lacking in kempo. Likewise, many of the *closing combos* used in kempo are more than adequate to be used in kuk-sool and match up with the combat philosophy perfectly. Unfortunately, they aren't taught in kuk-sool but rather left up to the individual to realize that such combinations are perhaps the best way to transition from kicking/punching distance to grappling distance.

    For the record, I never studied kempo officially, but understanding the principles they use in order to close in on the opponent isn't exactly rocket science, and working drills of a similar nature coupled with what IS taught on the official kuk-sool curriculum, seems to be a viable tool to add to one's *arsenal*.

    If this aspect, which I like to call, "transitioning skills" is overlooked when instructing students then I would chalk that up to the *dumbing-down* syndrome which many people like to point out & complain about.
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2010
  18. SeongIn

    SeongIn Banned Banned

    "blocking" is an antiquated, limited, and somewhat dangerous Method 법 Beob based on a concept of "defense" in which it is important to recognize what kind of hand or foot attack is being made against you.

    There are much better methods based on offense/counter-offense (yes, we've discussed that before) that I teach in which it is only important to know the angle of attack (8-Directions 팔방 PalBang + center). Superficially, this looks similar to trap hands, slap hands, etc. seen in various GongFu arts, but the theory, principles, and methods are different. In the various Methods 법 Beob of this type of hand/foot fighting, it may interest you to know that I use all the handwork of Kuk Sool (not Ship Ja Makki) and much of other arts in a non-blocking manner. So, unknown-KJN's assertion that Kuk Sool could benefit from more advanced non-blocking methods is valid and it could be done without loosing the essential characteristics of Kuk Sool or its circle-method of knife hand/palm/etc or its preying mantis type movements, etc.
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2010

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