You are wrong. Doing pad work and sparring does not preclude the other aspects of tai chi. Again you have failed to come up with a reason why this might be the case. Unsuprisingly, we also train without wearing boxing gloves. And we develope our bareknuckle skills in that way. Our interest in san shou type fighting comes from the crossover of the skills and the feedback we gain from it. Sparring with gloves makes you better at fighting without and with less injuries. The section I highlighted in bold merely confirms your own prejudices and your utter lack of experience with pads or sparring with gloves. These points still remain unanswered: 1)You can not tell me who taught Chen Tin Hung 'Shaolin' 2)You can not tell me what type of Shaolin was taught. 3)You can not tell me how you 'know' this. 4)The marrow washing you claim to be essental to tai chi is Shaolin in origin. 5)From your website and your comments here, you don't apear to be teaching the martial aspects of tai chi and are filling in the gaps with a mish-mash of oriental sounding gibberish such as 'co-operative qi disruption'.
I always forget that Chen style hits like a whip, one segment at a time, where as the other styles move the body as one peice, so the legs finish moving as the arms finish punching. Sorry, I was describing the mechanisms of a single strike and not a strategy when I talked about the drive forward off the rear foot. The inclined stance with the streight back is common to the wu style and the early yang practioners, in tai chi terms it 'allows the jing to assend to the headtop'. That is, the strength coming from good structural alignment of the body flows from the back foot all the way up to the head, encountering no kinks or breaks as it goes. Having said that, sparring kickboxing types, I do find it neccissary to drive forward in order to enter into a pushing hands wrestling/striking area that I feel more comfortable with. However, I prefere do it by allowing them to come forward into what they think is their ideal range for striking as I enter in further. This is tai chi as described by the classics, where he moves first but I arrive earlier (if only I was good at it). I would imagine his family website is calling it Cheng tai chi now, as a way to reinforce his son as head of the system. Dan calls what he does practical tai chi and my teacher calls it wudang. They are just names and it's best not to get to excited by them. BTW. if any mods are reading this, could you split the thread into two sections? I think both discussions are interesting and would like to continue them both, but I feel sorry for anyone else reading this mess .
4 It is just a name, origins do not preclude efficacy. Tai-Chi origins are very much rooted in Shaolin soft side application (from Chen family) and blended with Taoist esoteric energetic techniques (from Yang Lu Chan). These latter ones you don't understand so you do not do tai-chi, you are calling a monkey a horse! 5 I teach martial tai-chi, what the problem is you do not recognise martial tai-chi. You obviously see it as external, a common fault. The rest of your comments back this up. Nothing I say will change you as you see the concept from a different perspective. As I said you train Shaolin and call it tai-chi no wonder you don't understand. Tai-Chi since the early part of the last century has included balancing martial with civil. Some desire one some desire the other. Desire has nothing to do with it, you get both whether you realise it or want it. It just happens it is part of the growth process. That is an internal art, not bashing bags with gloves on!
Basically Pete we are wasting each others time as we do not speak the same language. There will be people here who understand exactly what I am saying. If you approach it with your intellect and demand intellectual explanations we will just go around in circles. Do you intellectualise your other energetic applications, think of things you feel but don't think. Do you own a cat? they don't rationalise they feel and comunicate with that, if you are open to it. Your intellect mostly will block access. Though you still participate in it on a subconscious level, training imparts conscious access. A little clue, making love and making conflict are just opposite sides of the same coin it all depends on the intent!
Taijiquan is mainly (or first of all) an internal martial art. An emphasis on it extarnal side may degenerate it's basis. There is not a clearly distinction between internal (ie. Wudang) and external (ie. Shaolin), because almost all martial arts contain both characteristics. Also is difficult to investigate about the masters of the past if there is not any documented thing about them. How I said TJQ is based mainly on the "internal" principles, and this don't mean that it is not (or that is less) martial. The problem is that many masters don't realy understand the advantage of internal principles/skills (such Relaxation, Balance, Body unity and Sensitivity) and so are searching for the solution elsewhere (also in external martial arts). In my opinion also the Yang style has lose its reputation because that. Many "traditional" masters preserve the essence of TJQ but today people (busy, impatient,..) don't understand it. It is more simple (and easy) to take a more easy (also external) art than can be learned in much less time.
OK then - hands up those who understand exactly what Richard is saying? Any chance someone else on here might be able to explain the purpose behind the rather strange exercises shown on his website in a language I might be able to start to understand?
Pete_e - I can't explain the the exercise on the Richard's site because I didn't (yet ) developed such abilities. I can only say (from what I saw) that they are exercises to supplement the Taijiquan work. That kind of exercises can develope Qi and also Jin. Is difficult to explain something to someone that could not understand. My teacher used to say: "Lower developed systems will never understand higer developed systems!". Only who develope such abilities can understand them, but probably other will not be able to understand him. In my opinion such exercises works, but I don't know exactly why. If you don't practice (them) you will never know (why).
Rather than calling a monkey a horse, I'd like to say I'm calling an ass an ass. I've just had a look on the internet and I can't find any link between marrow washing and chen style, except that some places claim to teach both. Perhaps, you'd like to point me in the direction of some reputable literature on the subject. You wish. You hide behind misdirection and meaningless phrases and consistantly fail to justify yourself. There is apears to be nothing of worth in what you say or what you offer from your website. Prove it. Offer one plausible reason why what I do is not tai chi and justify it. If that really were the case; A true tai chi practioner wouldn't be so uncivil as to slander someone without providing a good reason. Some you consistantly fail to do. Well it's a good job, I take my gloves off to beat bags up then.
The internal martial art can prevail over the external ones. There are some basic principles that can confirm my statement: I know that some one who is relaxed can gain extraordinary energy and can develop a maximum speed. I know that someone that preserve his balance has the control over himself and others. I know that someone that move with the entire body in coordination can generate immense power. I know that someone who develope sensitivity can preemptively respod to the attacks. This principles can be aplied in all self defense systems, also in "external" ones. All above can be proved. There is nothing hidden or mystic! The only problem is that "internal" skills don't always prevails over the external ones: 1) If you encounter an external martial artist that is faster more than (relaxed) you, you will probably lose. 2) If you encounter an external martial artist that can develope more (external) power that you can develope your (internal) power you will probably lose. 3) If you encounter an external martial artist that can (apart from his unbalance) take the advantage on you although (you are balanced) you will probably lose. 4) If you encounter an external martial artist don't use his sensitivity and you don't take advantege of your sensitivity you will probably lose. This is the sad story about internal martial arts (and also the Yang style Taijiquan). Always winn the better, irrespective if his art is extarnal or internal.
*Rather than calling a monkey a horse, I'd like to say I'm calling an ass an ass. So it is personal now, that is what you have been angling for from the beginning. Sorry I wont join in I sure you a really nice, if not very experienced guy. Come back and talk to me when you get more knowledge. *I've just had a look on the internet and I can't find any link between marrow washing and chen style, except that some places claim to teach both. Perhaps, you'd like to point me in the direction of some reputable literature on the subject. Another example of inexperience, is everything listed on the web? No! I quote my teacher and his writings (private). The actual history is facinating but a majority I cannot devulge as it confronts the *face* of living family member and other family styles. The relationship between Chen and Yang is the most interesting. The consensus, the divergence, the reasons. Like bread and potatoes, both carbohydrate but different flavour, different consistancy, both equally valid. What is not valid are the modern hybrids. Like some sort of baby food all mashed up together, no structure no consistancy. *You wish. You hide behind misdirection and meaningless phrases and consistantly fail to justify yourself. There is apears to be nothing of worth in what you say or what you offer from your website. They are only meaningless to you as you have neither the knowledge or experience of them. You have your teachers rhetoric, which becomes gospel, we all have this to a degree but look at motivation. Look who wants something from you. Do I want something from you, nah! I am just entertaining myself across the Christmas break. Stop worrying enjoy what you have, it is more than most others get. As I said before just try to keep an open mind. Everytime you narrow your view you lose potential. *Prove it. Offer one plausible reason why what I do is not tai chi and justify it. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, not the intellectual pursuit of the recipe. I have been teaching for 10 years and A of E has existed for 7 years. During that time I have had many current and ex Wudang / Practical / Cheng Style proponents through the door, they either go away confused, annoyed or enlightened according to their personal level of development. Come with a full cup and nothing goes in it just spills. They have been virtually the same challenge as the Karate and Wing Chun students when they come (the smaller guy Paul in the energy clips is a Shotokan Karate 3rd Dan instructor who teaches in Stevenage, want his email address?), in fact those are easier as they are not blocked by politics! *If that really were the case; A true tai chi practioner wouldn't be so uncivil as to slander someone without providing a good reason. I have slandered no one, give me examples, it is mild critisism and stories not slander. If you think so then sue me, I will give you my address for your solictors if you wish. *Some you consistantly fail to do. *Well it's a good job, I take my gloves off to beat bags up then. Waste of time, bags are not living. You trace your lineage to Lu Chan, what did he say about it? "I do not fight men of iron, men of bronze, and men of wood!" do you know what that means, it is directly related.
:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: What are the actual abilities that such exercises are meant to develop? And are these abilities that can, ultimately, be made to work against a resisting opponent? I'm pretty sure my background doesn't prevent people providing straight answers to these questions. Then we can see what, if any, understanding of the concepts I happen to have.
Richard, Firstly i must say that my post is based on experience,knowledge acquired by both learning from different teachers and listening to others point of view with an open mind. This is not to say that i'm right and you are wrong. I watched the pushing hands display/demo on your website and it seemed to me that the big guy was in fact using the 'drive forward' force that you say is not used in Tai Chi Chuan. I agree that there should ideally not be a 'yang' to 'yang' situation where the stronger person will win out and i'm assuming that the big guy borrowed the smaller guys force and redirected it using a forward 'ji' force being one of the 8 powers. I did not see the big guy breaking any root or indeed using angles first to upset the smaller guys centre of gravity before the push took place. He obviously did not need to as he is a big guy. It would have been more impressive if the smaller guy had pushed the big guy which would have have subscribed to the whole idea of the weaker overcoming the stronger. Anyway,that said, i have both seen and witnessed this sort of push many times and do not see anything wrong with it, but still,he used a forward drive and does use force- albeit maybe a Tai Chi type of force? I agree that Dan can be outspoken and may appear harsh at times but i believe this is mostly because he is passionate about the art of Tai Chi Chuan and does not advocate his student's to have closed minds-Fact. Most teachers today have watered down the art in order to teach full time. Read his books (you may disagree with what you read) and his articles in Combat magazine,they are not all one sided. Tell other artists from various martial art schools that your martial art is Tai Chi-What response do you get? Do you then have to go on and explain what Tai Chi is really about? Can you show what it is about and back it up in a real way and not some psuedo cobbled together version of a technique that looks exactly like the the Tai Chi form? This is what Dan is referring to and i have seen pictures of members of a certain Tai Chi family practising applications that look like they are postures from the form. Most of us know that the form was born out of the applications and not the other way around and therefore usually need to be modified to make them practicle and applicable. You should not have to spend 10 years learning the art before one can use it effectively-This is a myth yet sadly the case in many of the Tai Chi schools today. I agree that many of the more subtle aspects of the art art not easily acquired and student's have to practise-You will find varying degress of proficiency in any Tai Chi club as people will come to learn for different reasons. My Sifu learned his Tai Chi from Cheng Tin Hung after spending time with him whilst living in Hong Kong and although he does not practise or teach the art exactly as Dan does (they both have different body shapes for a start) they both agree that there are more similarities than differences. My Sifu's students/Teachers (including myself) have benefited greatly from Cheng Ting Hung's Tai Chi which was/is lively and stylish and uses evasive footwork,hand forms,weapon forms,self defence (Really not any techniques in Tai Chi only the application of the concept of Yin and Yang in applied way thus varients and variations appear naturally and organically) pushing hands and the Internal Strength Nei Kung in an effective practical way. Now if this is not 'Traditional Tai Chi' what is? Cheers, Mark.
I freely admit that I have been getting more and more provoked by you backing up your allegations only with further allegations, and absolutely failing to justify anything you have said. Let me rephrase. I have come across no link between Chen cannon fist, or chen tai chi with marrow washing in any reading of texts or searching of the internet. Once again you fail offer any information and hide behind that smoke and those mirrors you've talked of in the past. And my teacher (who for what it is worth, is not dan) has been teaching for the last 20, in itself, the fact of you teaching means very little. I am asking you for what evidence you have that the recipe I am following has shaolin origins. Obviously the answer is none. You have not directly slandered me, only my teacher's teacher and his teacher. I have no wish to sue. I doubt anyone else does either. None the less spreading these unjustified rummors as fact is still slander. To phrase it so you might understand, I punch bags/pads as a method of self refinement, not to fight them. The use of them tests my alignment and structure, my use of whole body power with the co-ordination of breath and timing. It isolates specific aspects of my game so I can work on them without hurting others or being hurt myself.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating, not the intellectual pursuit of the recipe. I have been teaching for 10 years and A of E has existed for 7 years. During that time I have had many current and ex Wudang / Practical / Cheng Style proponents through the door, they either go away confused, annoyed or enlightened according to their personal level of development. Come with a full cup and nothing goes in it just spills. They have been virtually the same challenge as the Karate and Wing Chun students when they come (the smaller guy Paul in the energy clips is a Shotokan Karate 3rd Dan instructor who teaches in Stevenage, want his email address?), in fact those are easier as they are not blocked by politics! Response; Richard, Were the alleged Wudang student's both current and ex confused when they arrived at your school? Why did they come in the first place? If not, what made them frustrated,confused or otherwise after spending time at your school? Why did they leave?-Only confusion and no epiphany? Not sure about the Enlightened bit-I firmly beleive that before enlightenment 'chop wood and carry water' and after enlightenment 'chop wood and carry water'-It worked for me! We have ex and current Kung Fu students,Aikido 2nd dan teacher and many others who have practised other arts at our club also-No great claim there! Jesus,I'm confused! Mark.
Hey! :bang: My Kung Fu is better than yours! :woo: What are you doing? It is a waste of time to discuss which style of Taijiquan is better!!! More than a style is important the talent of the practioner and the devotion to the practice according the correct principles! Better fighter do not yet mean also better style! Don't blame each other. Is better to discuss, not persuade or despise others!
The use of your internal energy - Qi / Invisible power, guided / motivated by mind, Yi. Within the conduit / vehicle of your body, Li. NOT - The use of your external structure (soft or hard) - visible power, generated by the vehicle of your body, guided / motivated by mind, initiated by the invisible power. Softness within structure (basics) is just the beginning, it is finding and learning to use that invisible power that makes Tai-Chi unique both as an art and as a lifetime pursuit. It cannot be intellectualised, it cannot be taught, it can only be found and manipulated until you become familiar with it and the growth process forges the usage paths. That is why it is such a long process. If you want quick fixes don't do Tai-Chi. Or more to the point don't call it that call it what it is. You claim to do Tai-Chi, traditionalists claim to pursue in order to become Tai-Chi. By staying purely within body mechanics you never leave the beginners stage.
I observe the observable, people from many school and arts visit our classes. If they don't demand or disrupt they are welcomed. Always contact before hand though to avoid possible confusion as some classes are beginners, some are more advanced, and some are only for instructors.
Richard, I appreciate that you observe the observable which i guess is one of the main reasons that you are present at the class. It is a good thing that you do observe and corrections can be made more easily by this style of teaching but i'm still not sure why the Wudanger's are going away confused and or frustrated. Most of the Master's of old were not academics or scholars ( exception to the rule exist i know) but their Tai Chi was in their hands (please don't be pedantic on this one) and they could show it in a practical way. I always take my training seriously but do not take myself too seriously but i would still like to know what you observed. Mark.
*I freely admit that I have been getting more and more provoked by you backing up your allegations only with further allegations, and absolutely failing to justify anything you have said. I owe you nothing this is not a court of law, your childish demands have no bearing on anything. It would not matter what proof I gave. It is just as stupid as me asking you to prove I am wrong. *Let me rephrase. I have come across no link between Chen cannon fist, or chen tai chi with marrow washing in any reading of texts or searching of the internet. It doesn't come from Chen though they use very similar as they are basically Buddhist and Shaolin motivated (that is the source). It comes from the Taoist side and is internal alchemy, an offshort of the pursuit of immortality. I use the expression as people are familiar with it and the process is basically the same. *Once again you fail offer any information and hide behind that smoke and those mirrors you've talked of in the past. Not everything lends itself to the intellect or the muscle. That is what you are losing. Not smoke and mirrors, that is deception, this is just hidden and you have pursue it to find it. *And my teacher (who for what it is worth, is not dan) has been teaching for the last 20, in itself, the fact of you teaching means very little. That wasn't the point of me saying it as you well know, you are looking to create your own manipulation and deception now. It was reference to the time over which a number of other arts and schools students have visited us. *I am asking you for what evidence you have that the recipe I am following has shaolin origins. The fact that when I touch your mind you don't have the conception. And if and when I touch the body the person doesn't have the perception. I am the only person I need to prove things to. *Obviously the answer is none. see above *You have not directly slandered me, only my teacher's teacher and his teacher. I have no wish to sue. I doubt anyone else does either. None the less spreading these unjustified rummors as fact is still slander. Consult a lawyer it is still not slander, you are as ignorant of law as you are of Tai-Chi. *To phrase it so you might understand, I punch bags/pads as a method of self refinement, not to fight them. More fool you, it will block Tai-Chi. But very good external Shaolin training, so less fool you if that is what you want. It is a big circle, which ever way you start off if you keep up the journey we meet in the middle. It is just you are confused which direction you are going. *The use of them tests my alignment and structure, my use of whole body power with the co-ordination of breath and timing. Physical power, ho hum!!! *It isolates specific aspects of my game so I can work on them without hurting others or being hurt myself. It is relative. A true master can tap and damage or hit and heal. It is all in the intent. Another clue!!!
