Anyone's Taiji Look Like This?

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by onyomi, Dec 24, 2005.

  1. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    The point is the same then is it not, only approached from various angles. In your example if you do the second you accomplish the first.
    If you simply 'do your best' then both are accomplished effortlessly.
    Trying, competition, win, lose, draw just becomes unecessary language which may or may not be distracting. If it serves you well, fine. If another understanding of language also serves the purpose well then that is fine too.

    I don't think purposes here are that different. What do you think?

    and yes Cullion, some of us have already sussed that liokault is versed in tao.
    He is quite tight lipped about it though.. an admirable trait. As is his lack of indulgence. Having said that, we all have our crosses to bear. I respect his views on tcc and martial art practice and the other stuff. The points I differ I have said
    . I banter with my friends too, I also respect them. Respect is a two way street though. So I can also have some respect either way whilst having no friends and disagreeing - there is nothing that cannot be reconciled.
    And that ain't no crock.. believe me. :) ha, ha

    excuse me I am finding the irony of all this highly amusing.
  2. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Hence why the best sportsmen, are usually the balanced ones. If you are lucky enough to get natural talent, stay balanced and work hard. Otherwise it more often than not goes to waste or, (which I think was your original point )- when taken to extremes can have negative results..on the whole.

    There are lots of examples around that bear this out i think
  3. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    This is why I use terms like 'play' and 'fun'. Newbies certainly should not read too much into it.
    Eg. Charles Onyaiki is our boxing coach, that takes these classes at our dojo (zks)
    Where we have a full size boxing ring now by the way. Alan Fox a former full contact champion takes kickboxing (he was trained by my main TC teacher Larry Marks) Everyone is encouraged to crosstrain, largely for the good points cullion raised earlier. Larry can't stand wet lettuce taiji.

    Anyway I digress my point.I've known Charles since my earlier boxing days at Finchley boxing club (Spencer Oliver is an acquantance &an old sparring partner) he's a Finchley boy too like me an ITS.
    I hooked this up, and sometimes i help him take the classes
    He is a very big bloke and I spar with him :eek: at the end of it I give him a big hug and thank him for playing with me. If he got serious I'de be in A&E every bloody week!

    And as for the term 'taiji player' thanks to keeping an open mind after initially
    thinking that is only what martial taiji was.--

    about what I get from Larry,his style is like EM's only he's better I think!
    :Angel: Basically Yang/chen combination..
    He also encourages us his students to get out there andtrain with other clubs, and all are welcome to come train with us.

    This has led me to another transmission of old yang
    (more internal I think) that teaches the taiji from this perspective of playing the 8 doors in various combinations - this really takes you to the heart of the art. All that striking /dimmak is furnishing really.. hmm the Yang family art is complex and has a great deal of depth.. To say the Yang family only practiced the real taiji is highly innacurate Richard! They incorporated Dim mak and chinna - like other CMA
    And the art passed on by YLC probably included all YLC learnt in his life - which was a lot-systemised into the Yang family fighting art.

    They maaaay have even incorperated some funky misderection body language and mind trick hypnotic shtick
    like the systema guys. People accept it when they see Derren Brown perform his stuff and they accept his explanations. They are not wrong. I saw him do it at a wingchun club. And you should have seen the grandmasters face :)

    Could the Yang family have blended some of these psychological skills . Yes they probably did I think. If you look back at the list of jins TB posted moons ago. You can spot some very psychological type ones, which I remember commenting on.

    Does this stuff intrigue me well yes it does, I love Derren Browns shows I try not to miss one when they are on though i missed the heist the other night.
    Would they help you in the ring - not a chance in hell I think.

    Prevention, avoidance of sudden violence, yes i think so - at least buy you a couple of very, very valuable seconds.

    For a better example of application than the Yang family show, check out beyonfd the physical by the Systema guys. Colonel Ryakbo certainly demonstrates some skill. It looks fairly believable and is explained
    in modern terminology.

    But and it is a big one, we should all listen to the skeptic within. And untill these guys show me what it is all about and how it works I will have to reserve my judgement on how real is real...

    I do not have a clue how for example Derren Brown does that thing that TB talked about. He says he has experienced that, and I have NO REASON to doubt him.

    So someone please - jekyll?? Can you bust this scientifically - show us what the trick is. How does Derren Brown do that stuff and fool us heh? heh???!!!

    come on clever clogs :D where's the sauce on this?

    Ha, Ha :)
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2006
  4. cullion

    cullion Valued Member

    Derren Brown achieves everything he does by psychological trickery, and has always stated matter-of-factly that this is the case except to his subjects during the course of the trick when he needs to pull the wool over their eyes.
  5. Jekyll

    Jekyll Valued Member

    Umm, what are we talking about?
    Derren Brown is an excellent magician and his shows are about misdirecting the TV audience at least as much as they are about tricking the people you see on the TV.

    What's this got to do with manipulating other peoples energies etc.?
  6. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    I believe my criteria was non co-operational. Get someone who isn't trying to drop the knife, and who is trying to stab/slash you and I will be happy.

    If you want more precise.

    Try your disarm on someone who is holding the knife with the rear most hand. They are using the forward hand to control you and defend the blade hand.

    Now this guy is simply holding his knife just above his waist. When he attacks he swings just about horizontally backward and forwards in a slashing motion while moving in on you. He doesn't do this until he is well with in range of you and until he swings he doesn't show you that he has a knife.

    Or you could just do a downward stab from out of range, but i'm not braiding any hippy hair for that!
  7. Shadowdh

    Shadowdh Seeker of Knowledge

    I wasnt addressing that there are varying levels of competition... just the point that you made regarding competition being "man made".. however life should be fun indeed...
  8. TaiChiFox

    TaiChiFox New Member

    Hi everyone :)

    While I usually don't post at MA boards, I have to step in for a lil defense of the ITCCA. I KNOW some of the displayed chitest are goofy... especially the stick and Katana one. But nobody expected him to be so bad at Katana attacks since there wasn't a rehearsal. -.-

    I rather put up two different ones for discussion, if I may:

    Please keep it civilised.
  9. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Well, what can be said?

    Look at the guy in the second clip who just walks back about 6 times in a fully controlled way then jumps a bit!!

    Crap, its all crap!
  10. TaiChiFox

    TaiChiFox New Member

    You call that controled? o_O
  11. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Although it's technically against everything I stand for - I agree with Liokault! :D Utter rubbish imo
  12. Richard Dunn

    Richard Dunn Banned Banned

    The hidding place of the scared and perceptually threatened. Hiding behind crap is not a particularly nice place to be. Open your mind to try and find an explanation that maybe is just a little bit lateral. First try to work out who is doing what! Because your perception hasn't got it yet.
  13. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    Well, as I see it:

    1/ The teacher is fooling the guys who are jumping, who in turn are fooling themselves.

    2/ The jumping guys are in on the joke and are fooling us.

    3/ its a real and the laws of physics that relate to what happens when you fall over, don't actually apply in a TTC demonstration.

    Incidentally, that's the guy who turned up at one of Dan's classes only to be humiliated and leave the country isn't it?
  14. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    So you coming down to Oxford on Sunday Butterfly? I'll buy you a pint and not call you a hippy (not even once) even if you can't do a magic trick!
  15. TaiChiFox

    TaiChiFox New Member

    It's two different people and Chu King Hung didn't leave the country. As I've been told he even offered a rematch in front of a camera. And the whole thing revolved about Dan pulling Chu in, Chu taking a step and Dan saying "you lost, I pulled you off balance". Thrice in a row upon which Chu flung him back a bit instantly and left angryly. The whole thing started because Docherty insulted the whole family, calling YCF "grotesque and obese, a man who couldn't fight".
    From personal encounters I dare to say that's actually how it went.

    And I've been part of those test, no one's fooling anyone, it's kinda hard to explain why you sometimes jump in the middle of a step. You just do it. You aren't really in control.

    And if you say "You complied", I usually comply at the "Let's see if this sucker is for real" level. Upon which I learned multiple times that the phrase "arms as ironbars wrapped in cotton" isn't a metaphor. Those blocks f*****g hurt.
  16. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    I stand corrected.

    And I've been part of those test, no one's fooling anyone, it's kinda hard to explain why you sometimes jump in the middle of a step. You just do it. You aren't really in control.

    And if you say "You complied", I usually comply at the "Let's see if this sucker is for real" level.[/QUOTE]

    Someone is fooling someone!!

    Its ok to comply. If the guy can exert some force then fine, go with it, don't try to deny it....I have no problem with this.

    What I have a problem with is a guy who clearly is walking backwards in full control, in no way about to fall over, who then feels he must skip a bit to regain his balance. My guess is that its fake. Hell, if the teacher is a really good con man the student may not even know he's faking it.
  17. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Well exactly that's kind of my point, we're talking about the mind.

    "it's all mind skill" remember

    sure we can analyse it and all the rest. A lot of psychology is involved. Well all of it. Does this translate to the body. I think definately - through the senses.
    Body language etc. It can be thought of as a form of communication no?
    Technically it is transference no? Aren't the old texts just describing the same thing.. it probably worked better back then because more 'believed'.

    What it highlights is that mind connection can be there. It is the same thing that turns a lump of metal into a can opener.

    the question is use. We all use it to some degree already.

    I agree with the sentiment that you don't have to focus on it in a hocus pocus way. If we want to train it, it has to be in perspective and making it part of contact application with resistance. When I say train it I mean the jins that are asscociated with it. Once you asscociate it with psychology you should get good at it I would imagine. I mean I am very interested in the sticking aspect. I see this as ' no resistance, no seperation'. Push hands right? The only things I've felt that were strange sensations in training I can explain to myself in rational terms. Like you I'de be interested to see how it's translated into fighting skill, and how or if it works on me.

    Yes those clips and another I saw recently are exactly as erm has been said :)
  18. TaiChiFox

    TaiChiFox New Member

    Oh, that. No, you are not about to loose your balance. It's more like your foot touches the ground and suddenly you feel lifted up. I never cared about the outside look because on the inside, there is nothing you can do about it... unless you want to take a fall.
  19. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    That's fine.....listen to me!! The guy was not about to fall! He was walking backwards under full control! Then (!) he lost his balance!

    How the hell does that work? If your going to post iffy vids, make them good iffy vids please!
  20. TaiChiFox

    TaiChiFox New Member

    No, you are not about to fall at all. You suddenly feel pushed up, eventhough the first few steps where you are pushed back are absolutely normal.
    Good iffy vids... I admit the one where my master pushed up someone who mounted him on the ground would be a nice one but as he says ,"I don't care."

    Last year Chu said something funny ,"The thing with Jing (the power derived from Chi) right now is, people don't know it. It like being in the 60s and stating that in just 40 years almost everyone will have a mobile phone which is so small that it will easily fit in your hand and it will have a small color monitor and you can take pictures (wtf!) and even send small types messages and..."

    Good iffy vids... emm, what would be nice? There is no way to make a believable vid except for some martial applications videos which then again wouldn't be anything special. Or someone who puts up an incredible amount of resistance upon which it would look like someone just being folded into a small package... which again looks unrealistic. Even visuals have their limitations I guess :(

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