Anyone's Taiji Look Like This?

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by onyomi, Dec 24, 2005.

  1. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    I thought I'd post a video of my shifu doing his Chen Style Laojia Yilu to see if anyone else practices anything similar. I was just wondering because I never seem to see Chen that looks like his. This may be partially because most mainland and American Chen seems to be either Xinjia or Hunyuan, but this doesn't even look like most Laojia I see. He apparently learned it from Wang Meng-bi, one of Chen Fake's earlier students. Wang Meng Bi's Taiji is said to have been nearly the same as another famous Taiwanese Chen master, Du Yu Ze's. Du was a friend of Liu Yun Qiao and taught Adam Hsu, so I would think maybe the Wutan people's Taiji might be more similar? Another aspect is my Shifu keeps his stances like his Longfist Mantis while doing his Taiji. In the Longfist Mantis horse stance, for example, the knees cannot go past the toes, therefore the butt will stick out more than you usually see in Taiji, which usually emphasizes "guo-tun" or "tucking in the buttocks." Anyway, just wanted to see what you guys thought of his form and whether anyone else out there practices something similar. :)
  2. oldyangtaiji

    oldyangtaiji Old Yang Taijiquan

    This the (real) Chen Style Lao Jia or its derivate

    This is the art that derivate from Chen Yan Xi (Chane Fake's father). Chen Fake also teached it at the beginning, but after he developed what is known as the today Chen TJQ style. This is a derivate from Chen Fake's earlier style.
    It was practiced also by Du Yu Ze and some components were adopted by Chen Pan Ling and Erle Montaigue.
  3. oldyangtaiji

    oldyangtaiji Old Yang Taijiquan

    Chen Fake's earlier style

    The "most Laojia you see" are not "Lao jia" (or Chen Fake's earlier style) but "Xin Jia" (or Chen Fake's latter style). Chen Fake modified the (old) Chen Yi Lu.

    Who is your teacher? Is Yang Shu-Ton (Tony Yang)?
  4. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    No, he's the guy in the video. His name is Zhou Bao-fu. His greatest specialization is in various Northern Mantis Styles, especially Longfist and Hand-throwing Mantis. He apparently first learned Taiji in Hong Kong after he was injured during the making of a movie and couldn't practice his more strenuous Mantis and Longfist forms. He realized through this practice that Taiji was not only a good recuperative exercise, but could also be a deadly martial art that could complement his Praying Mantis well. Therefore, when he recovered and returned to Taiwan he sought out Wang Meng Bi to continue his studies and now teaches both Praying Mantis and Chen Taiji.
  5. oldyangtaiji

    oldyangtaiji Old Yang Taijiquan

  6. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    Anyone have any clips of Du Yu Ze, Adam Hsu or any of their students performing?
  7. oldyangtaiji

    oldyangtaiji Old Yang Taijiquan

    I have the clip of the frst part of the form of Du Yu Ze. Is about 3 Mb and is also aviable (try search with Google) on the net.
    I am also searching for the clips of the rest of the form of Du Yu Ze and also Tony Yang and Adam Hsu.

    BTW, Onyomi thanks for the clip of Zhou Bao-fu! It is great. Previously I thinked that only the lineage of Du Yu Ze teach the old (or its derivate) Chen style TJQ.
    Today the "old" Chen is almost disappeared. Almost all Chen "frames" are from the Chen Fake's latter style. Only few lineages teach the Chen style before Chen Fake modifications.

    Look also at:
  8. SickDevildog

    SickDevildog Lost In The Sauce


    Awsome link oldyang,

    It's good to see some real fajin, and have it explained.

    I feel for the guineapig though, having to fall on the hardwood stage over and over. Must've left some nice bruises to take home ;)
  9. stillness

    stillness New Member

    Thank you for the links, I love seeing other people's taiji forms. Not only is it just nice to see people's abilities, but you can pick up things that might help with your own practice.

    I have one question, though. You talked about how his form looks different due to his mantis style (which I agree, very interesting to watch!), but you talk about how the knees cannot extend past the toes. My two comments are this:

    In "normal" taiji, do most people consider it ok to put the knees past the toes? I've been told, both in my taiji practice and by people involved in health care and health research, that you should avoid this.

    I see several parts in the video, even during thte horse stance which is what you were specifically referring to, where his knees go past his toes. What is happening here?
  10. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    I don't think he really is mate, notice how far out his **** is in the low stances? Can get really low that way while staying flat footed and the knee above the toes. I notice some bits that it certainly does look like his knee is about past his toes, but I think that is the camera, as when I see it he has turned slightly while his foot has remained in position, so it appears that the knee is extended over, where it has just changed axis. If you get what I am meaning?

    My two thoughts? Awesome hair and awesome theme music! I need to get me both! First time I have seen it practised like that though.
  11. Jekyll

    Jekyll Valued Member

    I was going to ask about this before I reread your post. A consequence of this seems to be that, as he keeps his head upright the middle of his spine arches significantly.

    In the wudang lineage, we also do not push the knee out past the toes but use an inclined and streight spine in our postures, this means there is no kink to get over stressed when we really drive into someone.

    Having said that, your sifu doesn't time his strikes so they finish with the liniar movement of the hips (in our style a strike finishes as the hips finish moving forward whilest your sifu will stop moving forward before finishing a strike), so clearly the drive forward is less important to you.
  12. Richard Dunn

    Richard Dunn Banned Banned

    This is a bit of a misnomer considering that the Wudang style in application is based on Southern Shaolin and not Tai-Chi. Even though you pay lip services to a Wu style form variant. This explains the application variants you refer to. In fact your mentor and his now deceased teacher regularly sneered at traditional Tai-Chi application in public and in print. In Tai-Chi you do not use force ("drive forward") in any way you use your opponents power, intent and disposition to your advantage. A hard thing to learn, not a quick fix as espoused in "Practical Tai-Chi" training, another misnomer!

    And just for my information what is the Wudang Lineage you refer to. I presume you are not going to include any of the Hong Kong Wu's in it are you?
  13. Jekyll

    Jekyll Valued Member

    I'm sure you can cite sources to show why this is southern shoalin.
    Yes. I believe Beancurd boxing is the phrase used to describe people who do not train to use the yang.

    You must remember what the yang is, the other half of tai chi, that complements and completes the yin. Fusing the two together is the goal of effective tai chi practice. Presumably, this is why it is called tai chi chuan and not just yin chaun.

    I'm talking about chen tin hungs lineage, as you well know. It's freely available on the web, would you like me to google you a copy?

    I'm also curious as to why you've got such an obvious axe to grind, did Chen Tin Hung run over your dog or sleep with your wife?
  14. Richard Dunn

    Richard Dunn Banned Banned

    Tai-Chi is a specific art, that was/is very secretive on the martial and application side. It took years to be in a position to use or even be given it as it required you to be changed. A process known as marrow washing that take about 7 years of correct training, before that the uses are only physical in nature and are not Tai-Chi per se. Real Tai-Chi is only supperficially physical as a conduit of your (and more importanty, your opponents) Yi and Qi. Chen Ting Hung's father taught Southern Shaolin. His father died when he was still young. Latter in life he studied Wu Style in Hong Kong but because of his volatile personality he was never taught the inner work and he fell out with his teacher because of it. He then approached Yang Sau Chung for the work, who again blanked him due to his reputation. Chen took personal exception to these rejections and spent a large portion of his life paying them back in words and deeds and planting that same seed in Docherty who now plants it in the likes of you. He also was determined to show them up in fighting competition and used one of his father friends to teach him Shaolin application and link that to Tai-Chi philosophy and Wu family form work.

    So a very effective hybrid was created that had the advantage over traditional Tai-Chi of giving application and usage very early in the training. Reversing the needed process of internal growth and change, which turns you *into* Tai-Chi, into a normal external art process of training the individual as they are. Shaolin neigongs such as Iron shirt are used in this process

    My objection to Cheng and Docherty is that they have deliberately acted as Tai-Chi punks and insulted and tried to damage the traditional families and lines in word and print. I also object to the almost complete lack of understanding of the Tai-Chi process shown by their students.

    The problem is that these hybrids now exceed the traditional. There are many more out there not just Practical Tai-Chi, it seems to have become a fad. The signs - look for Iron Shirt type training, look for overtly physical application, look for sneering at and the complete misunderstanding of the concept of Qi usage, look for training with pads and gloves. If these are there the possibilities of it actually being Tai Chi are minimal. The cross training problems also manifests on the Yin side. I have witnessed classes where the student have to chant Buddhist mantras while practicing their forms to the sound of Tibetan bells. Tai-Chi is neither a new age hippy art nor a knock'em down martial art. It is a life time process that *creates* Tai-Chi not trains it. This is why some senior traditional teachers refuse to say they teach. They don't - they guide and create for people who they wish to be their friends.

    Now if you are happy with your training then I am very happy for you, I just wish to make a point, but I have no intention of duplicating Chen and Docherty and turning it into a life long pursuit. This will be my last comment here on the matter.
  15. Shadowdh

    Shadowdh Seeker of Knowledge

    Oh please god not another "my taiji is real and yours is not" proponent...
  16. Jekyll

    Jekyll Valued Member

    Marrow washing is shaolin/budhist in origin, which is all the more ironic given your other comments. Sources for the rest, please.

    Again, sources please. Which shaolin school? Which trainer?

    Tai chi is a martial art. That is it produces martial artists if trained correctly. People who can actually fight rather than gullible simpletons.

    On a slightly related note, here's a clip from your school: 3.2.MPG

    Respect is something that should be earned. There is no way in hell you can teach such utter excrement as is on your website and expect to be taken seriously.

    Do you realy mean what you just typed? That an obviously physical application, is a sign of fake tai chi?
    People should actually test what they're learning, it's no good teaching them if they take the wrong lessons away with them. Padwork has it's own benefits and is part of this testing, the same holds for sparring.
    Tai chi was origionally famous for it's practioners martial abilities. The only way they could have such a reputation is if they went out there and fought.

    It's people like you who are watering down tai chi and taking it further away from its roots, in effective fighting.
  17. SickDevildog

    SickDevildog Lost In The Sauce

    LOL @ thaqt clip! :D

    Please release me from the force! :eek:


    Oh and talk about tearing apart jekyll ;)
  18. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    I have no idea where the hell you came up with this ****, but it is blatantly untrue. Where did you get these lies? Yes his father taught Southern Shaolin, and yes he died when Cheng Tin-hung was young. You throw that in to try and decieve, it means nothing. He was told to learn Tai Chi Chuan from his uncle as that where the money was, people would pay for Tai Chi Chuan as a cure for TB. His uncle could certainly do that, but he didn't know much of the martial technique behind it, and thats when he got in Qi Min-xuan to teach his sons and nephews, as his uncle only had (I think 18) of the 24 Nei Kung, amounst other things.

    I have read some ****e in my time but that takes the biscuit.
  19. pete_e

    pete_e New Member

    Well that clip and the other 'Energy Work' clips certainly brightened up my day at work! :D

    I'm well aware that a lot of taiji application work needs to be felt rather than seen, as it looks deceptively light and harmless, but I fail to see what these clips are meant to demonstrate. Any chance of an explanation for them Richard?
  20. Jekyll

    Jekyll Valued Member


    However I did go slightly overboard. As Brido rightly said, C.T.H.'s father did teach some kind of southern fist before he died.

    The rest of it is ******* **** though. And I'm sure he won't be able to back any of it up.

    Edit: We now return you to your scheduled discussion of O.'s teacher's form.

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