I'm very curious about the style, I've read that it is based upon the fluid motions of the mythical dragon. But I was wondering if anyone had any inside info to validate that point or if I'm just out on a limb of ignorance.
Hi Nimrook, last months copy of Kungfu magazine has an atricle entitled "Shaolin Northern Dragon Spirit and Technique Unification By Chaan Tzu Ismail Saadat", I`m sure this will answer your questions. Check out http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/magazine/article.php?article=351
If you can get yourself a copy of the book "The Complete guide to Kung Fu Fighting Styles" by Jane Hallander you will find info regarding the Southern Dragon style. The Southern Dragon style is rarely taught outside of HongKong/Asia these days, there are very few schools in the west. There are a couple of schools in the U.S and I know of a very reputable school here in the U.K(London). The Southern Dragon(Sign) school is Hakka chinese in origin, at to some it is regarded as a sister style to the Bak Mei(White Eyebrow) style, also Hakka. The style is characterised like you say by its zig-zag type footwork, like a dragon coiling its body, it is also known for its dragon claw open hand strike. Like all Hakka styles Dragon, Bak Mei, Southern Mantis etc are very aggresive and rely on ferocious attacks to neutralise the opponent using internal energy(ging). Very little in the way of blocks are used, if some one attacks the punch is deflected/parried away, in which time the Dragon/Hakka practioner has closed the distance and strike before a second strike can be thrown. Unlike other kung fu styles the forms of the Hakka styles are not pretty to look at, they look a bit crude compared to the more main stream styles like Lau Gar, Choi Lee Fut, Hung Gar etc. This is because they are more interested in effectiveness and practical applications than looking flowery. Hope this has been some help Chaz
a great deal of help, thanks. I'm going to check out that book you mentioned right after I get done with my current one. Thanks both of you
I would also strongly recomend the book"KUNG FU, History, Philosophy and Technique" by David Chow and Richard Spangler. There is a good section on the Dragon (Southern) style with Grandmaster Lam Kwun Quon of Hong Kong. Below is the Dragon style's motto:- Control yourself, let others do what they will. This does not mean that you are weak. Control your heart, obey the principles of life. This does not mean that others are stronger. As expressed by Sifu Lam
If I may, regarding the original question, and addressing the subsequent posts : Lung Ying (Dragon Sign) is not specifically a 'Hak Ga' style, as this refers to a people rather than a 'way'. There are Lung Ying schools and teachers around the world. In the UK, six or seven come to mind immediately. The statement made about blocks is not quite correct as blocking and striking are in fact staples of the core training in Lung Ying, hence much arm conditioning being necessary. I could not begin to say whether or not the style is based on the motions of the mythical dragon, as I have never seen one, have you? I can tell you that the motions and san sau are based on straightforward no nonsense techniques, with a lot of forward movement 'pressing' the opponent as soon as the opportunity arises. As for the sets looking unpretty and crude, well , as they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder! Although it is quite correct to say that the sets are based on practical effectiveness without wasted flowery movement.
A good web site for the Southern Dragon style(Dragon Sign)is :- http://www.lungyingjingjung.com I know that the term 'Hakka' refers to an entnic minority of chinese, but to many people that practise the Southern Mantis, Pak Mei, Dragon Sign styles consider them actual Hakka arts even if there orgins are or are not from the Hakka people. Its a simple generalisation to group these arts from the Shaolin arts, after all they do have certain features that they all share like keeping the elbows close to the centre line for protection, using powerful close range techniques using more internal power, being very aggresive attacking styles etc
Chaz - "but to many people that practise the Southern Mantis, Pak Mei, Dragon Sign styles consider them actual Hakka arts" This maybe so, particularly in the context of posters (no disrespect intended towards you) on web forums where using the term makes it all the more super secret and mystical, but as they say 'it aint necessarily so'. This brings me to another point, which I see time and time again on forums such as this. Have you seen any Lung Ying? Again I mean this as no personal attack , but the amount of times I have seen posters describing arts that they have never witnessed or paraphrasing students of such arts that they have never met, never ceases to amaze me. Now I fully well realise that I could well be just another fool posting, and I can't really prove otherwise, except to say that I am not, so just for the record, I study Lung Ying and Pak Mei from a Hak Ga teacher. I would, thus, never comment on the 'ways' of Jook Lum Tong Long or Chu Gar, because I have never witnessed any. Its as simple as that, so I cant see how people can compare and contrast what they have never seen, but there we are!
Hear Hear 9 step! I wholeheartedly agree with all your statements, and also as a practitioner of lung ying I can safely say that there are MANY schools located outside of China and HK. In fact I think there are more schools outside than in! UK, US, Canada, Australia, France, even Venezuela! Nimrook were you even talking about lung ying in the first place? There are many dragon styles , but i guess most people assume lung ying cause the literal translation to english is the same. IMO it is incorrect to class these arts as 'hakka' just because they look different from shaolin, and have similarities such as the elbows tucked in, higher stances, etc. from that description wing chun could also be classed in the same group, but they're not. the only reason why they're called that is because all 3 grandmasters were of that ethnicity. but if u look at the history of ly it has its history in shaolin, and from my experience it is actually closer to 'shaolin' than pak mei or spm. just because external appearences are similar, doesn't mean they are similar. Yes dragons never existed, but i think the point of the style is to capture the essence of one, not to imitate imagined movements. strength, courage, power, etc. never to reveal the true essence of oneself until a crucial moment. "the fluid motions of the mythical dragon"... from my experience, not only is that represented in the footwork, but the body as a whole. spiralic energy WITHIN the body is physically expressed with the co-ordination of the body as one, thus the pressing motions within the opponent and the zig zag like footwork appears.
Surely, to say southern dragon is not hakka is like saying karate isn't Japanese just because there are American masters of karate. I understand Lung Ying to be more evasive than Chow Gar southern mantis. That's the dragon nature, slippery and sharp. To say that the only resemblence between these fellow styles (they are) is external is wrong. There may be differences between your dragon and white eyebrow but there are bigger differences between the branches of mantis than that difference and still I see the commonality of them. Anyway, nice to know there are some southern dragoners lurking Chaz, are you the Chaz I spoke to on britishbornchinese? Rgds, David
David : "Surely, to say southern dragon is not hakka is like saying karate isn't Japanese just because there are American masters of karate." I'm not quite sure what you mean here David, or in fact who or what you allude to?! There are in point of fact many Lung Ying practitioners who are not Hak ga, that much is certain. "I understand Lung Ying to be more evasive than Chow Gar southern mantis." I don't know any Chow Gar, so I don't know this to be true, but I would ask why it is you understand Lung Ying to be more evasive? Perhaps if we can establish common ground we can learn something between us about our respective and apparently similar systems (I am assuming you are a Chow Gar practicioner)?! "To say that the only resemblence between these fellow styles (they are) is external is wrong. There may be differences between your dragon and white eyebrow but there are bigger differences between the branches of mantis than that difference and still I see the commonality of them." I agree in as much as I know here (i.e. I know nothing except what I have read of Mantis), and I would be interested in why 'Crumpet' sees Lung Ying as closer to Shaolin that Pak Mei or Chow Gar. I suppose however that answer may lie in what each persons definition or more to point experience with 'Shaolin' is. For instance, my experience of 'Shaolin' is of similar type to what we have all probably seen performed by the 'Shaolin' monks, wheel of life and so on. Which to me, is quite dissimilar to Lung Ying.
Hey Ninestep, My point about calling the style Hakka was that the roots are Hakka, wherever you go and how ever far in the future, it must still be classified as Hakka meaning it was rooted in Hakka tradition and nobody else's. If I can use the link posted earlier as a source, I would point to the Unicorn Dancing depicted in the Gallery as a Hakka trademark. Everyone else does Lion Dancing. My understanding of Lung Ying is of the aforementioned laughable variety: from discussions with an Australian dragoner and from reading-up on the web. I'd love to discuss these styles with you. Start a thread or we could discuss our styles over email. I'm sure you have the principles (actions!) of float, sink, swallow and ... spit. You train mor kiu like we do, I think. Your stance is like our bow (as in arrows) stance. Perhaps it was incorrect to use the word evasive because it implies retreating from the action or avoiding it. You specialise in getting round attacks to deliver your payload, all that zig-zagging etc. and you train that way from day one, yes? In Chow Gar (yes, that's what I study), the slipperyness comes much later in the form 18 Swimming Dragons, the first truly yin fighting methods that I have seen - everything up to then seems very harsh. We have a Shaolin origin story about a guy who became a cook at the temple and started by being bullied. Not too fussed about where it came from but I do know the Hakka rightfully claim ownership of these hands, Shaolin or not. I'm with you in my vision of Shaolin styles - all longfist and acrobatics so I get a bit embarrassed when I say "actually, Chow Gar is Shaolin" because it sounds lame Rgds, David
David - "Is there any dragon near me in Plymouth, UK..?" I was in Plymouth the second from last week of September! The closest to you that I know of would be Bristol. www.dragon-sign.com www.loongying.co.uk Note by the way, no Unicorn just Lion and Dragon dance, oh and a noticeable play to the Southern Shaolin tag The only Unicorn dance I know of, is my teachers (but then he is Hak Ga!) 18 Swimming Dragons (Sup Baat Jau Lung ??), well it would seem that perhaps this is what links the styles we have been discussing, in a way, as a Sub Baat set or Mor Kiu set if you like, seems to appear in every one although by name only it may not seem apparent, i.e. Pak Mei Sup Baat Mor Kiu, (which by the way is 'soft').
Hey 9step, Bristol's a bit out of my reach right now. Maybe one day I could see/try some dragon? If you're down this way again, we could perhaps hook up to do demo a couple of forms if you're interested. Chow Gar forms are ugly and I definitely don't do them any favours even when I get them right but you're welcome. Nice website (dragon-sign) - haven't seen that before. Looking at the form photos, it seems that you have different emphases than the mantis, which is to be expected. We like our phoenix-eye and hammer fists Your stance seems to be leaning forward most of the time where ours doesn't, again due to difference in approach (literally ) I have our "sup baat yau loong" on tape but I haven't been taught it as a form though I have trained a few of the movements - lots of twisting, changing direction, flowing and surprise attacks. It introduces taiji-like weight transfers in the movements and a welcome looseness after much heavy tension. I look forward to getting more of it. Rgds, David
i can't speak for the other 2 styles, but i didn't mean ly isn't hakka because there are sifus from different ethnicities... as 9step mentioned in one of his earlier posts, it is especially used by some forum posters, as the term brings up alot of connotations of secrecy, mystical, etc. of course u will find more ppl on the internet calling it hakka. firstly because they can, secondly cause no amount of verbal arguing will stop them, and thirdly cause it brings up the connotations of elitism. to say an art is ____ just because the gm was of that ethnicity is a little weird imo. but hey, whatever makes u feel better. there was some talk on other msgboards about the 3 arts being derived from 1 form that was supposedly hakka originated. however there's no proof as to that (no one's even sure as to the name, and anyone who insinuates they do know it, never tells ppl anyway ). in any case, the family art that gm lyg knew was also from shaolin, that's why it mixed so well with dai yuk's kung fu. i think many of these ppl believe it to be a hakka art, and even if that was true, how and why would one disregard the shaolin dragon that is the core, essence and majority of the art today? and yep, just like dragon-sign.com say, wah so toi temple was affiliated with the southern shaolin temple. AND, ly isn't only steeped in hakka tradition. there's fujian derivations, guangzhou and HK derivations too... when i said shaolin, i didn't mean the northern temple wushu monk type shaolin, but southern shaolin and 5 animal kung fu. in my experiences, they are quite similar to ly in concepts rather than external techniques. the way they transition btw techs are also very similar. i find the flavour of pm different, because the schools i have experienced concentrate on the '1 hit, 1 kill' theory. therefore the transition btw their techs is alot more sharp and crisp. also the power gen is different because of this. but yeh... of course the styles have similarities. all 3 gm were friends, they exchanged techniques, so that's prolly why we have some of the same moves. still... internal concepts are different though. i've rarely heard of spm being compared to ly, moreso with pm. i've only seen 1 school of spm, and i could see why that was so. but i dunno about all the other branches. i thought spm was from kwong sai temple that's in a completely different province from fujian? yeh unicorn dance is mostly associated with hakka schools, but i know of some other southern schools that perform it too. and i'm from australia, hi david
as i post i know 9 step will reply with sarcasim at which time i will most likely ignore his reply. I study an art Called Shou Shu, it is based on a 7 animal system from China. it has been refined to suit defense in street fights. the animals taught are Bear, Tiger, Mongoose, Mantis, Cobra, Crane, Dragon. The name Shou Shu come from the manderin Chinese dialect. its translation is loosly Fighting Way of The Beast. It is an art that was taught in china, that we know of it is not taught by anyone widely. Our Master past away last yr and besides his son and two other Da' Shifus no one else teaches Shou Shu. It is in my opinion a great fighting art. While i ignore 9 steps remarks of degrading i would be happy to answer what i can. It is only taught in the California, US. so it wont be widely known. SSB
Hi Crumpet, this problem with identifying Hakka-originating styles as Hakka is weird to me. Chow Gar has had two non-Hakka gm's since the last Hakka gm but surely it would be impertinent (theft!) to stop calling it a Hakka style. I'm not sure where the elitism etc comes from - in IME nobody ever heard of Hakka. Maybe you have the equivalent problem to mine of identifying with Shaolin The history of these styles is beyond my grasp. Politcs (Chinese & kungfu), contrary lineages, missing knowledge, myths and confusions all steer us away from clarity. Was there ever a Southern Shaolin Temple? A couple of years ago, the PRC reckoned they'd found it but most think they'd just found a good site for a theme park. Kwongsai southern mantis is but one variant and never appears in the Chow Gar history. I'll have to get a map of China to see what all these placenames mean because they're all just words to me so far except for Hong Kong and I think I know where Canton is. Rgds, David
