Anyone ever really fight on a table?

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by geezer, Mar 13, 2012.

  1. geezer

    geezer Valued Member

    Guys, take a look at the following. It's an idea I posted on another forum, but I'd be interested in the responses of folks over here. The following is a quote from a thread I was reading on that other forum that kind of got me thinking...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Sean66
    Sifu WKL: Some parts of the Wing Chun style are very useful, while others are not ideally suited to certain situations. All styles have their benefits and disadvantage. Say, Wing Chun can be used with great effect when you only have small space or fight at close range. Like the predecessors, when they exchanged skills it was on a very small platform. So back then you could not step too much backwards, so the platform made you have to keep a close distance.


    Anyway, we've all heard this stuff about old school bouts in Hong Kong and on the mainland fought on top of tables. And of course there is the cool, if unrealistic, table top fight scene in the movie Ip Man II. Or the one in Prodigal Son.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTi01vpqWnQ"]Prodigal Son table training sequence - YouTube[/ame]

    My old sifu spoke of training chi-sau that way, and from time to time we've all seen demos like that -- using strong square tables something like heavy-duty card tables, ....not tippy, round restaurant tables like in the IP Man movie, of course. Well, reading the following bit on another forum got me wondering, "Why don't we set up actual competitions based on this?"



    Personally, I'd really like to see competitons set up like this. Maybe not on a table, exactly, but you could set up a small, low platform about 5 ft. by 5 ft., or even a bit bigger, say 2 meters on a side, and have opponents start from opposite corners. You could allow kicking, punching, elbows, knees, throws, or grappling, but if you go over the side, you'd lose points. If both competitors go over, you'd reset on top. It could be done safely using low platforms ...perhaps raised about 18 inches or maybe 50 cm off a floor padded with mats. Having such a small floor-space with no ropes or netting to lean on would definitely change the fighting dynamics. It would be challenging and dramatic, and it would showcase the type of close fighting situation WC evolved to fight. OK, personally my money's still on the boxers and Muay Thai guys since, on the average, they train a lot harder and have more hard sparring experience. But it would be a good venue for any scrappy young 'chunners who want to give it a go.

    The other option would be to set up a "mini cage" that's about 5ft. by 5ft. That would also really screw with the way people typically move about and use range. Either way, has anybody ever tried sparring or competing with a rule set like this? I'd love to know how it went.


    BTW don't get all on my case for this being a dumb idea. I know that ...after all I posted it, right? Heck, I still want to see no foul, full contact basketball!
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2012
  2. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    hahaha!!! I have to give you props for posting the idea up! :D And I think the whole no foul, full contact basketball would be much tougher than anyone dreams. Already all my mates who play hoop regularly are the ones consistently with the most injuries - elbows in eyes, twisted ankles, headbutted by mistake etc. Pftt.. it makes boxing look safe. :D

    As for the whole fights on tops of table historically... I think this is more down to Chinese heroics based on old Shaw Bros. films than anything in reality. You're in a fight and you jump up and put your self on a ridiculously unstable platform? Why would anyone do that? So no... I think this is by and large heavily embellished horse pucky. Even the so-called rooftop fights that took place in HK back in the day are by and large... BS. Look at the few vids of them that exist. They are beyond laughable the skill showed by guys who supposed hard men. It's embarrassing for anyone who drags this old funky chesnut out into the light of day. :p

    As for training... sure why not. State of confusion (to borrow a term from the personal training world) is good for the brain and body while training. Forcing the body to adjust to a new scenario means gains. As for competitions based on this format though... meh... I already dislike the whole San Da and other CMA styles that fight on raised platforms. Leads to way too much start/stop/start/stop in fights... and doesn't give the opportunity to have a person show what type of skills he has when he's back into a corner or a cage wall.

    On that note... check out my other recent thread regarding X-Arm... not a million miles away from what you're suggesting. :D
     
  3. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    A quick Google turns up the following that may be of interest:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9zY5zsj2nM"]Wing Chun Kung Fu - Table Fighting with 3 Poles - SAS Martial Arts in London - YouTube[/ame]

    and here it's taken far too literally :p

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xdbjyc_table-fight_fun
     
  4. geezer

    geezer Valued Member

    What was that? Yeah, that's the platform idea I was talking about, but what's with those poles? If anybody tried to go at it hard, you would probably snap the darn things off, or worse get one rammed through your gut or backside.

    Hmmm, on second thought, for a close range competition, maybe the phone-booth sized cage would work better after all.
     
  5. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Dan Docherty had folks competing in push hands events on table tops in the early days of the British tai chi Open. Here are some pictures:
     

    Attached Files:

  6. 19thlohan

    19thlohan Beast and the Broadsword

    certain things in CMA's are unique to certain styles. Wing Chun may have fought on tables to enforce the use of their style and strategies but I doubt if many other styles or any mixed style matches ever used them. Their have also been matches fought on the plum flowers posts but the actual use of them was probably very limited. However fighting on the lei tai is very traditional and they came in many shapes and sizes. In the south they were typically much smaller than in the north so a lot of northern styles would find it very hard to use their footwork and distance control strategies in a tournement or challenge match.
     
  7. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    what kind of suplex is that in the second picture?
     
  8. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    The only move we train that looks like that is a Firemans carry. There's no suplex in tcc as we don't train to subsequently fall back while carrying / picking up someone.

    What we would probably try and do from there is chuck them off or drop them on their head from standing, slam them into something, throw them into oncoming traffic etc.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2012
  9. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    whats the name of the attack?
    do you have any links explaining it? it looks really interesting.
     
  10. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    If by "attack" you mean the application, then as I said it's basically a firemans carry. It's a common martial application in cma. Often in tai chi shools it's taught as an application of the posture/ movement known as 'snake creeps down'.

    Put firemans carry into youtube and i'm sure you'll find a few decent tutorials or demos.

    Hope that helps.
     
  11. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    the head comes to the side with the opponent across the shoulders in a fire man's carry.
    you also have control of one arm so the opponent cant grab both hands around the waist so this isnt a fireman's cary in the picture
     
  12. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    Japan has raised platform fighting. It has a pretty good following and I rather enjoy it.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhiBX1Vskbg&feature=endscreen&NR=1"]Takanohana vs. Chiyonofuji : Natsu 1980 (貴ノ花 対 åƒä»£ã®å¯Œå£«) - YouTube[/ame]
     
  13. m1k3jobs

    m1k3jobs Dudeist Priest

    Japan has raised platform fighting. It has a pretty good following and I rather enjoy it.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhiBX1Vskbg&feature=endscreen&NR=1"]Takanohana vs. Chiyonofuji : Natsu 1980 (貴ノ花 対 åƒä»£ã®å¯Œå£«) - YouTube[/ame]
     
  14. AuHg

    AuHg McDojo Happy Meal

    well, ive never chi sau on table tops. however me and my training buddy we would go to a corner of a room then set up chairs all around. the space is about one step each since we didn't want to get thrown to the chairs we would use pivot to slam the other person to the wall. it was alot of fun until it got serious.
     
  15. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Wow, sounds like you were there!

    These are old photos and I wasn't there; I don't know the guy in the photo to ask him, and it's just a competition snapshot from one angle.. So, you can't tell exactly how they got to that position other than some guesswork and you don't know what is happening on the other side IOW you can't tell if the arm on the side you cannot see is being controlled or not.

    How can you ?

    It's really hard to tell in a single snapshot what exactly happened before and immediately after, and also what is happening from other angles. Also on a table top in a competition whatever you do or attempt will rarely be pulled of technically perfect. The head is to 'the side', and there's a possibility that there is an attempt there to get the opponent across the shoulders - the limited space and maybe the angle he had to enter produced such this variation where he didn't get the guy perfectly across the back of his shoulders, but up on one shoulder as is shown.

    It could be a double leg or single leg that turned into a pick up like that. But those are the only alternatives from tcc that I've come across that could end up like that. The position of the lifters left hand doesn't favour it having been a double leg, which leaves a single.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2012
  16. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    i'm pretty sure the application is "pick the guy up, then drop him really hard"

    now i wanna do push hands on a table. ah... if only i didn't suck at push hands :p
     
  17. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    No need to be so sarky mate.
    i was just asking for some more info about the technique used because it looked like an interesting counter to a sprawl.
     
  18. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    btw i searched up "snake creeps down" - interesting stuff - do you have any links of a video of the application?
     
  19. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    If you were just asking for more info, tell me where these requests are in the following:

    I don't even see a polite thankyou for the information I tried to give you, just someone throwing what I offered back in my face IOW :

    me: the closest looking thing in tai chi is a firemans carry.
    you: Nuh-huh, that's not a firemans carry.

    Here's some more free info. Don't even consider this as a counter to a sprawl.
    What does that even mean; a sprawl is used as a counter to a shot.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2012
  20. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    touche good sir.
    i was being in a rather nasty mood. i apologise.
    i'm not really sure what is going on in the scene, only one guy epically lifting another while on a table.

    hence the word "interesting" counter to a sprawl (a counter to a counter so to speak).
    more than anything i have no idea what was happenening in this scene and hoped you'd post a video of the techniques being used. i had no idea TC had double and single legs. i'll PM more questions not to clog up the thread.
     

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