Anyone ever done MA weapons in the SCA?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Combat Sports, Nov 24, 2012.

  1. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    They are banned from boxing and MMA because they cause cuts which end fights quickly.
    We get 3-4 hospitalisations per year or there abouts. Mostly either for a couple of stitches, soft tissue damage or the occasional fracture.

    The Bear.
     
  2. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    When they do it without the $1000 armour I'll be impressed.
    SCA is a laugh and not serious martial art. I don't see why you have to pretend that it is. Just accept you like dressing up and bashing your mates with sticks. It's funny it's only ever the American who feel they need to justify their past-times as something serious when it's quite clearly not.

    The Bear.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
  3. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    My comments were more of a general nature, obviously coming from a JSA background I tend to lean that way in my thinking but I was looking at the use of SCA in training in a sword art.

    With that in mind I still don't see their striking methodology as being particularly useful, it seems developed purely for scoring.

    SCA is what it is but if you wish to study weapons then study weapons and while you may point out their hard training etc well to be blunt so what? Plenty of other styles train hard and have numerous drills and training methods that fit in with the system being taught.

    It's cool in a way but only of limited use, IMO. I'd soon put on bogu and go at it with a fukuro shinai or if feeling braver not bother with the bogu and I'd imagin the HEMA guys would rather do something more in line with their training.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
  4. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    3-4 hospitalizations per year for...a club of ten people? An organization of a thousand? Give us some context here. Because out of all the different martial arts clubs I've been a part of, that number is SHOCKINGLY high.

    And when you talk about fighting with nylon swords and nothing but fencing masks, this is the sort of weapon you're talking about, right?

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmvJsxtfpjA"]HEMA WMA Nylon Longsword sparring at GHFS - YouTube[/ame]

    And do you have any videos of your club sparring? I'm curious to see the ferocity of a club that puts one of its own members in the hospital about every ninety days.

    ...as opposed to HEMA, where you bash your mates with nylon sticks, trying to fight just like an illustration in a three-hundred-year-old book with weapons that aren't actually used by anybody but HEMA folks anymore...which is Totally Serious Business (TM)? Pot calling the kettle black if you ask me. Indeed, in my experience, HEMA folks take themselves a lot more seriously than SCA folks, not less, so I'm not sure that's the basis on which you should be attacking the SCA.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
  5. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Total myth. This is another thing I hate about SCA, they peddle myths as truth without even bothering to study the history.

    The Bear.
     
  6. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Club varies from around 10-12 people. It's higher than some clubs but not higher than the dog brothers guys we know.

    We use those and steel semi sharps.

    Nope and for obvious reasons none will be published.

    The Bear.
     
  7. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    The thing about sword arts in the 21st century--whether you're talking about kendo or iaido or HEMA or SCA or Olympic fencing--is that they're ALL "of limited use." Because people don't carry swords around anymore. All of these organizations are basically self-contained hobbies nowadays. What do you do with Olympic fencing? You fence. What do you do with HEMA dussack? You do HEMA dussack. What do you do with SCA heavy fighting? You do heavy fighting at SCA events. What do you do with kendo? You do kendo. Etc.
     
  8. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    So according to you, a quarter of your members are hospitalized every year.

    Huh. That's a truly unprecedented casualty rate.

    That's too bad. I'd love to see what you're talking about.
     
  9. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Nylon is a cheap. Custom made semi-sharps we use cost around £300 a pop so you can't expect people just starting out to fork out for one.

    Nobody is claiming HEMA is a serious business but atleast we are honest and try to learn the arts as they were orginially intended.


    The Bear.
     
  10. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Not really if you are doing over 100-200 sparring rounds per year.

    Well UK law being what it is, you can fall foul by someone misunderstanding the conditions of a sparring match.

    The Bear.
     
  11. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Come on Mitlov. If you can't get your head around the fact that this discussion is taking place in the weapons forum, that the contributors practice weapons arts and that basically any point made is going to be with that context in mind then I'm not sure what the point is of doing this.

    I wouldn't have thought it needed being spelled out that comments such as "of limited use" is in the context of training in the arts being discussed.

    So I'm not being funny now but I'm a little unclear of what point you are trying to make with the above? Your comment is a little redundant and seems to miss the context of our discussion.

    Not all of them. What do I do in Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu? I study Musashi Sensei's hyoho, that's not so self contained.

    A Kendoka could probably expand on Kendo and it's practice too.

    Even with your above points in mind that has little bearing on studying a weapons art in as functional a manner as possible and that's where some of us are coming from.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I like the way the "kingmaker" talks about "getting your arm broke", and chatting about technique after you die, hilarious! It's the seriousness that gets me.

    The drill video was so lacking in pretty much everything it wasn't even funny; footwork, structure, wrist alignment & cutting angle...
     
  13. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    A hundred sparring rounds a year is two rounds per week. I dunno, let's ask the kendoka or the MMAers and FMAers and kyokushinka if 25% of their participants are hospitalized each year, year in and year out, from sparring two rounds per week. I think you'd be hard pressed to find another club represented on MAP with anything remotely like that casualty rate.

    UK law prevents you from filming the sparring because it's so violent, but not from talking about how violent it is on a forum where anyone, including law enforcement, could be reading? I don't understand.
     
  14. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    It's a drill done by SCA competitors as part of their SCA training, and you're pooh-poohing it because all it does is make you better at scoring in an SCA competition. Seems to me that saying that a sword art drill is "of limited use" because it only helps you with that particular sword art--maybe I'm just stupid, but that criticism you made seems equally applicable to most everything we do besides basic body mechanics (body weight centered, body relaxed, etc). Likewise, wouldn't a HEMA dussack drill probably only help you with HEMA dussack and not kendo or classical foil? Should we thus criticize it as "of limited use" as well? That's what I wasn't getting.
     
  15. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    UK law doesnt prevent me. I just decided It's wiser not to draw attention to my group. I don't need any more students and I don't do film work.

    The Bear.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
  16. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Drill? Sorry I'm lost. My comments were based on some of those clips of duels, the general manner of using the weapon seen in those clips. It is hitting, there is no concern for cutting the opponent down or through them. That's only one point too, I bet Bear could come up with other HEMA related ones.

    Now as this thread has appeared to have developed into being about the general usefulness of SCA as it would relate to weapons training I feel that is a rather important point.

    Yes SCA lets you belt the hell out of each other but if most other sensible methodology is abandoned so that the goals of the competition can be met then it is of little use to those of us who practice sword arts with a combative core.

    That you point out that SCA work is specific to SCA fighting and centred around that sort of makes my point.

    For the record similar points are made about Kendo but Kendo has a little more to it than the competitive format. Also certain methods were put in place to at least enable Kendoka to be able to study the use, in someway, of the sword.


    I don't think SCA is being criticised for being SCA, it is what it is. However I think many of us can not see the value of it beyond the SCA world and the general benefits you can gain from any other social and physical hobby. This has nothing to do with insular attitudes either, there are plenty of examples on here where WMA guys and JSA guys talk shop and can see the benefit of each other's training.

    Also Mitlov I'm a little confused as to why you have such a problem with discussions focused on SCA? It seems a very emotive subject for you? So for the record when I comment it is purely from observation of what has been presented here, I know very little about SCA. I'm not out to bash it etc.
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
  17. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Quick question.

    Is the armour simply there for protection of the players?

    That might sound odd as yes that's what armour does but if its only purpose is to enable the safe participation of those taking part then it doesn't relate to how the combat plays out does it?

    See what I'm getting at?

    It's great wearing armour but if you aren't trying to bypass the armour then it is just a training tool and not a consideration of combative practice, functionality etc

    Make sense?
     
  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Ok, watched that now. Their weapons were not behind their head when they were in range, they were at the side. I'm not saying I was super impressed with the video, but it's still a world away from the SCA ones posted in this thread.
     
  19. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Last edited: Nov 28, 2012
  20. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    I also don't get the dussack obsession. I've never met anyone training with it. It's a rare training implement.

    The Bear.
     

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