Anyone ever done MA weapons in the SCA?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Combat Sports, Nov 24, 2012.

  1. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    I've chopped plenty of firewood with hatchets, splitting mauls, and chainsaws and I've sunk a knife in my finger down to bone. So?
     
  2. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Apologies Mitlov, I can't watch the videos now, I'll do that later tonight.

    As for holding the "sword" over the shoulder, I personally like to have a weapon between myself and my opponent.

    Facing someone with a live blade is a scary thing, being cut is a highly unpleasant experience, even if the wound is not serious. It takes timing and skill to spot and take advantage of an opening. The gopher-whacking in the SCA videos here looked more like pugil stick fights from gladiators than sword fighting.
     
  3. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Not the same really.


    With a sword you have to concern yourself with cutting angle and edge alignment, get those wonky and you have trouble safely and successfully cutting through your target.

    Now none of that comes into things if you are just belting someone without having to worry about your weapon passing through them.
     
  4. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    But since it's used by HEMA as well, I don't think it should be used as a basis to pooh-pooh the SCA as less realistic than HEMA. There's clearly a reason for it.

    Of course. But one thing SCA and HEMA folks have in common is that they've probably never been in this situation.

    Patience and waiting for an opening is great for one-on-one duels. It's not a good strategy for anyone who ever participates on a larger battlefield, which SCA folks do very regularly as part of their "wars" (group combat between regions). Want proof from people who really know because they actually still need to kill people with melee weapons?

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU6M9p9tR3A"]Marine Corps Boot Camp- Bayonet Assault Course (Part 3/12) - YouTube[/ame]

    No patience and waiting for an opening being taught there. Instead, you see the same sort of no-hesitation aggression being taught by the US Marine Corps for bayonet combat.

    But just because someone attacks relentlessly doesn't mean they're not skilled. You can be a skilled or unskilled patient duellist or a skilled or unskilled battlefield aggressor.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  5. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    How much experience do you have cutting wood? "Cutting angle" and "edge alignment" are critical.
     
  6. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Rubbish, I fight full contact with nylon and wooden sparring with only a fencing mask. You learn real fast how to defend yourself. We include punches, headbutts, kicks and grappling into our training. I also fight frequently unarmoured with steel blunts.
    You want to compare this training with full armour being hit by padded sticks? Don't make me laugh. You're living in fantasy land. It's like comparing nerf boffers with the dog brothers.

    The Bear.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  7. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Yeah but you need to understand the concepts of zufechten and kreig to know when and why to use it not just monkey see, monkey do.

    The Bear.
     
  8. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    lol yeah I thought that after reading my post :D

    My point was in relation to your weapons practice.


    With the SCA is there any work done on performing a solid cut as opposed to a hit? Any auxiliary training outside of the competition format?

    The motion of a cut is rather different to hitting something, this is what I've been trying to get across.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  9. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    It's not "monkey see, monkey do." SCA fighters don't use that guard because they watched some HEMA dussack guys and copied them. Is that seriously what you think happened?

    SCA fighters use the guard they do for the same reason boxers keep them up near the head and taekwondoin keep them down by the sides. For the same reason that FIE epeeists bounce on the balls of their feet and FIE sabreurs don't. Because it works. Each group has evolved based on what works in their competition ruleset. Different people try different things; certain things work better than others; over time, more and more competitors start doing what works.
     
  10. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    During my one-afternoon exporation of SCA heavy fighting and from what I've seen from my friend who does it, a thick wooden post (perhaps 8" in diameter at least) is used as a dummy, and is a daily part of the Boulder, CO group's training. You strike that with various strokes, practicing using hip rotation to generate power. It was more of a chop than a push cut or draw cut...but given that we're talking about battlefield weapons and armored opponents, not Italian dueling sabers or Japanese katanas on unarmored opponents, I'm not sure that's a bad thing.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
  11. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    You don't have to be patient, just good. Plus, it was an SCA duel that was posted.

    The closest I've got to SCA types is working with re-enactment guys on battlefield scenes for TV. It was like walking through a field of targets, no mobility, no situational awareness, it boggled my mind how easy it was to blindside those guys.

    I don't claim to be expert in sword work at all, but preservation of my weapon is something that strikes me as very important, I want to use it at the right time, not bash away at people willy-nilly till they go down.

    As for the marines, yes they are fearsome and brutal warriors, but skilled in bayonet use? I'll have to wait till I can watch the video you posted to comment...
     
  12. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    It's nothing to do with battlefields. It's total fantasy land. Nobody anywhere ever fought like this. If you think they did you are seriously delusional.

    The Bear.
     
  13. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    They use the guard incorrectly so what else am I to think.

    The Bear.
     
  14. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    I forgot how much I hated the dripping condescension that so often permeates HEMA versus whatever threads (HEMA versus sport fencing, HEMA versus SCA, HEMA versus historical recreation, etc). I'm out.
     
  15. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I'm sure if you said it's just a bit of fun no-one would care, but saying it's based on medieval combat is silly. That's all.
     
  16. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    EDIT: Never mind
     
  17. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Sounds similar to tategi or a pell.
     
  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    That's a shame, I was starting to see where you were coming from. Ah well...
     
  19. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Okay, given your latest comment, I'll try again. That's not exactly what I said. What I said was:

    I stand by that characterization. Just as I would characterize boxing as a sport based on a fistfight but not a 100% accurate portrayal of a fistfight (for all the reasons traditional martial artists and RBSD guys point out: boxing gloves, Queensbury rules, etc). Boxing rules and boxing equipment have caused an evolution of certain techniques and tactics are really based around winning-under-the-rules-and-with-that-gear instead of based on street fights. But there's also significant overlap. To say that it's not related to medieval warfare because it's a recreational sport that's not identical to medieval warfare is a brutally black-and-white worldview.

    Yep, they call it a pell.
     
  20. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Ok, I still don't quite accept your boxing analogy in terms of equating what I've seen of SCA to it, but I do see where you're coming from and I see the logic. By that, I mean I agree with the logic of your argument, but think your conclusions are a stretch.

    I think this is as close to agreeing as we'll get, I don't mean to poo-poo a fun hobby, and if I ever get the chance I'll give it a go, it does look like a good laugh.
     

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