Anyone ever done MA weapons in the SCA?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Combat Sports, Nov 24, 2012.

  1. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Police using them is a fairly recent resurrection of the tactic. They are helpful to push a crowd back as long as they have weapons no more serious than sticks, stones and petrol bombs.

    Their use by riot cops in no way shows an unbroken line in warfare. I'm not seeing your point here.
     
  2. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    They use shields for house-entry, yes. But I've never seen them form a shield wall.
     
  3. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works Banned

    Particularly during sieges there were all sorts of situations where your horse was not going to be useful.

    My point would be not that the tactic was "abandoned" just that it's use was changed for the circumstances. A pike formation can do pretty well against infantry too but there were still situations you would be better off with a line of shields to hold doorways, hallways, etc.
     
  4. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Even if that is correct, it doesn't change PB's point about the historical accuracy of the SCA battle that was posted.
     
  5. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works Banned


    If we mean warfare strictly in used by members of the military, military units are sometimes (thankfully rarely) called in to deal with large groups of civilians and such as well. But that's semantics. A tactic does not cease to be part of martial arts just because our police use it more often then our "soldiers".
     
  6. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works Banned

    No. His statement was not accurate because he claimed that shield walls were abandoned entirely. And that has never happened. It's purpose changed to certain circumstances but it did not suddenly vanish.

    If I am proceeding against another group of people who are not using firearms which is far more likely then me proceeding against an organized Calvary unit in today's "world" then a shield wall is still what I would want to do.
     
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    No, by warfare I mean used in war, as in battles. Sometimes the military are given policing roles.

    I don't think anyone is criticizing shields, just pointing out anachronisms in the SCA videos posted in this thread.
     
  8. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    That is completely beside the point.

    The point is not what you may like to do, but what actually was done at a point in history.

    If they're going to make stuff up to suit the games they play, that's fine. But trying to claim any historical accuracy is simply not true.
     
  9. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works Banned

    When you are taking a building from someone who does not want to give it to you, let me know how well your Calvary charge does up stairs, around corners and in tight hallways.

    Warfare is not just out on the open battlefield where your opponent was nice enough to bring all of his troops out to face yours on even terrain.
     
  10. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    What the heck are you on about?

    :bang:

    This is going here there and everywhere, surely the relevant point is if SCA are claiming to be historically accurate and if so are they?

    Police tactics or horses running up stairs has nothing to do with it and it looks like you are trying to argue for the sake of it.
     
  11. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works Banned

    Again, warfare does not only exist out on open fields where your opposition was nice enough to bring out all of his troops into a field and engage you on even terrain.

    I think the attempt at a semantic dodge to suggest that because the tactic is more commonly used by the police force now rather then the military is a weak argument. What constitutes a battle? Well that would be a mutual exchange of violence between two or more opponents. It does not suddenly become warfare because of the uniform one group is wearing.
     
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    This is again entirely irrelevant.

    The SCA battle posted was on open ground.

    Many battles up to and including the 20th Century did involve two sides at opposite ends of a field. Not that skirmishes and sieges didn't happen, but I haven't seen anyone dispute that here.

    Lastly, how do you form a shield wall in a corridor? Are two or three shields a wall?
     
  13. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works Banned

    I am a student of military tactics. When someone says that shield walls died out before the medieval period that is not an accurate statement. Did they fall out of fashion in open field battle? In most circumstances. That does not however mean that if infantry in the medieval period were engaging other infantry and there were no horses present that they would not fall back into a shield wall. Because they would. You use what you have in a given situation. Technology sometimes makes those situations more and less prevelant.

    The correct answer is that shield walls were not the preferred tactic in any battle where there were heavy Calvary.
     
  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I don't think it's a semantic dodge. It's most likely defined somewere, otherwise we'd see more rioters in the Hague.

    From my perspective you are completely dodging the anachronisms pointed out in the SCA battle video.
     
  15. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works Banned

    Any time you put two or more shieldman together you arguably have a shield wall. And shield walls in corridors are extremely useful. You can hold a given area with very few people for a very long time.
     
  16. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Ok, fine.

    So what about the shield walls seen in the SCA battle?

    Historically accurate?
     
  17. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    If you are a student as you claim. I think you should actually go study then. Rather than making a fool of yourself in public on a daily basis here.

    The Bear.
     
  18. Combat Sports

    Combat Sports Formerly What Works Banned

    That's actually what you are doing. Along with further abusing your mod authority and generally making MAP look bad.

    So you drop the ad hom bomb. We have established that you are skilled in calling people names. This however does not suddenly change the fact that shield wall tactics were still employed in various circumstances in the medieval period. Thought I would point out that internet thuggery does not somehow make you "correct".
     
  19. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Wonderful.

    Why all the nonsense with riot Police etc?

    You've gone all around the Wrekin trying to make your point, I'd have thought for an academic you would be somewhat more concise.


    As both sides are chucking around authoritive statements about what was and wasn't used at any one point, would someone care to start citing sources?

    There's that much bitching and tit for tat that people are missing what's being discussed, SCA.

    The only problem I can see with SCA is if they start to claim historical accuracy either in their methods on the "battlefield" or technical skill with a weapon.

    If they aren't doing that and it's all fun and games then there's no argument really.
     
  20. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Could we ignore PB's lack of social skills long enough for you to answer this question please?
     

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