Anti Kimura Muscles

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by Kibbles, Feb 12, 2011.

  1. Kibbles

    Kibbles The Iron Bucket

    Which exact muscles would you train to heck so that you could overpower a kimura and what exercises could you use to do this?

    Yes, I know this is a bad idea.

    You'd need strength in a few muscles to overpower two of an experienced grappler's arms and probably also their abdominal and thigh muscles plus body weight.

    Yes it is stupid and prevention is better.

    Please don't scold me.
     
  2. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    This thread sounds like something dreamed up by Wing Chun. lol. Anti-grappling is a fail so they jumped onto Anti-Kimura... maybe they thought if they started with only a single technique at a time they might get it to work this time around. :p

    Seriously... improving a particular muscle so that you can power out of a kimura is beyond dumb. Not only does the human body not exactly work like that... as in... muscles work in groups relative to one and other... eg. kinetic chain....

    It's belies a clear misunderstanding of the mechanical advantages offered by someone who's sunk a kimura in. Biomechanics 101 stuff.
     
  3. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    All you need is two of these bad boys and you'll be kimura-free for life.

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Is that Van Zandt's next development?
     
  5. AndrewTheAndroid

    AndrewTheAndroid A hero for fun.

    Um, Kuma, I am not sure that robot is used exactly for what you think it's used for.... ;)
     
  6. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Oddly, I actually know a really good dirty joke along those lines...
     
  7. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    The answer is Brasilian Jiu Jitsu.
     
  8. seiken steve

    seiken steve golden member

    Stew smith has some good rehab work you may want to read for after you get your shoulder torn out.
     
  9. Microlamia

    Microlamia Banned Banned

    Lol dudes, I don't see anything wrong with asking a hypothetical question :)
     
  10. tonyv107

    tonyv107 Valued Member

    Sure you might be able to build the muscles to help resist a kimura lock but it's pointless. Physics 101 you simple can't generate enough power from you shoulders/arm/back to offset the leverage provided by the attackers arms/hips/boy weight etc. It's like trying to push someone off you in a full mount using only your arms, when you can easily bridge and roll( which is more effective and a safet option). Not trying to scold you but it really is a dumb question.
     
  11. Kibbles

    Kibbles The Iron Bucket

    There's a reason I put this in the "What Not To Do" section... but all those answers were boring... Except Kuma's

    In any case, the reason I have these oddball questions is that, usually, over the course of trying something strange and apparently ridiculous I end up discovering something else relevant to real-world martial arts.

    Again, please don't think I don't know this is a terrible idea
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2011
  12. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    true true... as they say... no dumb questions (though sometimes we see this pushed to the extreme here at MAP)... only dumb answers!!!

    The OP has been pretty explicit about knowing it's silly. But sometimes it's things just as this that lead to very interesting threads and conjecture.

    :)
     
  13. Kibbles

    Kibbles The Iron Bucket

    Yay


    These haven't helped me :confused:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  14. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Anatomical drawings are only ever going to be as good as your understanding of the functionality behind that anatomy. For the issue at hand - kimura it's going to be one of the leverage that a kimura has versus the muscles able to resist a kimura. The whole point is that a kimura properly sunk will 99% of the time beat any attempts to muscle out of it...

    Why?

    Because the kimura has the mechanical advantage. The leverage is too great once it's sunk for the person who's being submitted to actually counter it much - even if they muscle it... chances are slim once it's set up properly. This is why certain positions are much harder to sink a kimura from because if you're not in a position to apply the proper mechanical leverage then the submission has a much less likely chance of actually working.

    What is a great help in understanding this is:

    1) actually learning how to do the submission eg. rolling in BJJ or whatever other types of Jiu Jitsu teach the arts teach the kimura or similar variations on a shoulder/elbow lock

    http://www.bjj.org/techniques/bjjfighter/gi/side/kimura/
    http://www.bjj.org/techniques/bjjfighter/gi/mount/keylock/
    http://www.bjj.org/techniques/bjjfighter/gi/side/keylock/


    2) basic principles of mechanical advantage and leverage
    http://www.dynamicscience.com.au/tester/solutions/hydraulicus/simplemachineslevers4.htm


    3) The underlying knowledge of how your body works in terms of kinetic chains and agonist and antagonist muscles is probably the least touched on subject in most martial arts. It's not all that complicated and can open up a whole world of good things for your techniques. College sports have been using sports sciences heavily based on functional anatomy for years... martial arts in many respects lags far behind. Bone up on your functional anatomy and your musculoskeletal system and reap the rewards. Those martial artist who don't are like bakers who want to bake the perfect loaf of bread but don't know anything about dough.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2011
  15. Amber

    Amber Valued Member

    I'm no expert but... somewhere in the shoulder?

    Front raises would probably be the way to train those muscles specifically.

    Damn, you would need some serious muscle power to pull this off though. A basic one from mount provides alot of leverage; most kimura's from other positions have used the applicants body as a sort of brace, meaning you might be able to resist it for a bit, but you won't be able to escape it.
     
  16. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    This thread seems very akin to asking how to best take a straight right in the face without blocking it. Common sense says, though, learn to block it and you won't get caught with it too often.
     
  17. Kibbles

    Kibbles The Iron Bucket

    This is actually one of the reasons why I asked the question to begin with.


    Well, ya.


    I've actually used the kimura. It works pretty well. My ground fighting has been improving.

    I actually studied mechanical engineering once upon a time. I know the principles of that


    My martial arts studies have actually gotten me into studying medicine just to figure things out. It seems I know more about fixing chronic muscular weakness and pain than some of the local doctors these days... Which is not a good thing in my opinion. I'm also trying to figure out a heart/chest compression move that you can perform standing or as you bring someone down to the ground. I currently have no way to verify if the technique will work, or at least none I'd like to try.

    I've been looking at that wikipedia page all day while referencing some grappling moves. Whenever I get pressure applied to my arm in the manner of a kimura, I feel a certain muscle being strained as I try to resist it. What bugs me (in the way of having the title of a song at the tip of your tongue) is that I can't identify which muscle it is.
     
  18. Kibbles

    Kibbles The Iron Bucket

    I'll try to see if those put strain on the same muscles. Come to think of it, I'll try the reverse motion too.


    More strength than I'll likely have unless I'm fighting a child. :)
    I'm thinking though, maybe strength there combined with other motions might prevent a person from putting your arm into a fully... uh... "locked" kimura, maybe.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2011
  19. Kibbles

    Kibbles The Iron Bucket

    It is I suppose.

    I'd like to think of it more as "How could you prepare for the possibility of failing to block or dodge a punch to the face?" though. You'd get a really strange answer if you tried but isn't "What not to do" the section for this sort of thing anyway?

    If people didn't try out seemingly pointless things, I think we might not have electricity or aircraft. I'd like to study martial arts in the same spirit of experimentation.

    I mean, you can actually find answers to "how to prevent a kimura" by watching failed kimura attempts on TV and looking up wrestling or BJJ techniques or some fighting magazines "what to do" articles. yet what else could you try?
     
  20. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Technique should still take priority, even when taking a punch (i.e. rolling with it). Trying to strengthen your jaw muscles to just take the punch is a different story. For the kimura, you learn how it's applied and then from there you will know when your opponent is trying to lock one on you and how to avoid it. That's where everything should first go. From there it's the same prescription for everything: physical fitness, repetitions, drills, and sparring. Once someone actually has you in a kimura, it's about the same as getting knocked down with that punch: whatever you could have done to prevent it beforehand you failed to do.
     

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