an intresting exsperiment on victim body language

http://youtu.be/gQYEaeQAyIM


I watch this clip recently.
It's showing scentifically what I think most self defence Trainers know that the way you walk, hold yourself can make you a victim.

I would be interested in hearing trainers constructive views on it.

 

This has been around for a while now. Its a good clip for sure.

It needs to be mentioned though that how and why a mugger selects a victim is much different to how and why an aggressive male will select a victim for a street fight in front of his friends.

A mugger will choose a weak victim. Definitely. They want to be able to get in there, get what they want, and leave quickly. These sorts of attacks are predatory.

But a young punk picking a fight will select a different sort of person. Such a weak person wont come up on their radar generally. They will choose someone they feel threatened by. They will pick someone they perceive as being more on their level. They wont pick on some weak guy because if they do, it lowers their status. What true tough guy picks on the weak? It just makes them look weak. They will loose status, not gain it.

And they wont pick someone they think is way beyond them for obvious reasons. So they will pick someone who they feel threatened by, status wise. This is the game of the Alpha Male.

So being more upright and slightly aggressive will likely deter a mugger but may actually insight an aggressive young Alpha Male to choose to fight you, especially if you look at his girl, bump into him or get eye contact.

Something to think about.

 

Osu Altc,


I agree with everything you say, except that is it is more the game of the Beta, Charlie, Delta or Zulu man... Alphas have too much to lose to get into status seeking shows, and nothing to gain.


Osu!

 

Agree 100%

That's what I meant when I said what true tough guy wants to pick a weak victim. But yep, for sure. Real alphas don't pick fights.

I just use the term as it helps paint a picture of the nature of such an encounter. It helps explain the primal nature.

 

This was a great video clip I've never seen before, and I'm really interested in seeing it in it's entirety. I can't even find a reference to it on imdb though. Anyone have any clue where one can watch the entire documentary?

 

maybe the "wanna-be-an-alpha" game. but still agree on that. two kinds of victim selection, predatory and organizational status, yields different criteria. funny thing is, you can also apply it on a grander scale, i.e. war and international politics. you can see throughout history which nations are predatory during their time and who does the chest-thumping.

 

So... damned if you do, damned if you don't?

 

I'd say the percentage of morons who actually want a "fight" is much lower than the percentage who just want a "victim". Go with the odds. Look quietly confident, but not threatening. I'll venture a guess that the mugger is looking to sucker-punch a weaker person, while the "show-off-fighter" would probably issue a challenge first - giving you a chance to defuse the situation (or just plain run away).

 

Not at all. You just need to recognise what type of situation you are in.

If you are around lots of other people, it is going to to be 'alpha male' or 'beta male' type violence. You do not want to appear as a threat. But no need to be meak either. But even BEFORE that, simply dont let yourself get into arguments. Almost all of this type of violence begins in arguments. You may not start them but with people watching, it can be hard to back out of one if another idiot starts one and tries to 'ego' you into a fight.

If you are walking down a side street alone at night... The threat there is a predator. This is where you do not want to appear to be weak. This is where you want to be scanning around, looking aware and spot your potential attacker early. This gives you options to act prior to a possible encounter going physical. It also lets the predator know you are onto his game and he has been spotted. This has denied him the element of surprise. The predator wants this. He will probably let you pass in this situation.

I recently put together an entire manifesto about this very subject at my site which is free.

But simply, that is the key. Understand there are mainly two types of attacks. Understand what one is happening in front of you (where you are and who you are with will tell you this easily), then act accordingly. Even not being in such a location or doing a certain action will prevent much possible violence.

Its quite simple but not always easy.

 

Good post!! It helped me to realize what I was doing wrong when I was a kid.. I hadn't realized till now, but the provocations from the other guy always started by getting in an arguement with him, as you just said.. Almost every frigging time.

Looking back at it, I think that situations like these can be treated easily if you keep your calm, and make something like a joke to defuse the incident at the point right before it starts. You can even look cool and easy going if you do it skillfully. It just takes to have some awareness and to understand where that arguement or conversation will end up.

 

This is a good clip. I'd be more impressed if they'd shown the footage to convicted scroats than to boxers. But I'm confident the final conclusions would be about the same.

However, I don't entirely agree with this:

In my experience the young punk will seek to pick a weaker person too, or at least on who is distracted. OK, someone who is obviously very weak and vulnerable may not be the ideal candidate (although sometimes they can be). Perhaps ideally the victim would be 'weaker', just not overtly or really blatantly so.

Very rarely have I experienced an attacker genuinely picking someone for a 'fight'. If you discount moments of anger that spontaneously flare up in social situations I find that what's left is almost always an aggressor selecting a victim. And almost always this situation can be de-escalated if you nip it in the bud early enough. But if the person really wants a fight (with a worthy adversary) then I think there's very little you can to divert their intent.

Whether you're being selected for a mugging, robbery or just a pub fight I think the strategy for 'failing the interview' should be just the same - calmness, self-confidence and awareness. Project the aura of someone who is in control without being arrogant. Its simple, doesn't require you to make any decisions about the nature of the potential assault and - in my experience - works reliably and repeatedly.

Of course, its one thing me saying its simple and being able to describe in a fairly short list exactly what to do. But its another thing getting others to replicate that - I think this is more to do with self-confidence than with the specifics of the skills involved.

Mike

 

I dont disagree with what you have said Mike. Interesting stuff. If that is your experience I am happy to learn from that.

I think all aggressors, even what I call Alpha Male (or Beta Male), choose someone they see as a threat, but still someone they believe they can beat down. They think they can beat them. This is why they choose them. They dont want to pick someone then loose (although I have seen some people do this. they were intend on hurting themselves). It is to make an example out of that person to the crowd. The crowd will witness the victor. This is all basic and primal stuff.

So I agree with you in that the aggressor is looking for a victim, but in the overall context of human to human violence it is very much like two animals of the same species fighting in the wild. Think two male lions fighting over a pride. They both stand tall, let out some roars, do a little positioning and generally try to look like the bigger faster stronger lion. and then often they fight. This is the type of violence I am talking about when I talk about Alpha (or Beta) male violence. There is lots of posturing, vocals and maybe some pushing prior to it going physical. The results are rarely lethal. The loser just saunters off with superficial injuries.

Mugging is much more like a leopard stalking and attacking a deer. Very different dynamic. The attacker is much more calm, It is pre meditated. The attacker wants something for its survival. For a mugger it is usually a wallet or possibly a smart phone or ipod as well. Often, once the mugger gets this, they will leave.

So the two dynamics are very different. I did not make this hypothesis up. I learnt it from others. But I have found hard data to back this model of human to human violence up. I think for each type of violence, the aggressor is looking for different things. What will deter one type of attack, appearing strong and confident to a predator, will often incite an alpha male type of attack.

I am trying to learn from what you are saying. I think what you are saying about calmness, self confidence and awareness are bang on. But I dont think they are necessarily responses to either -or attack but should be constants that are always on. Those constants can be built upon for each I feel and other more precisely applied responses , body language and verbal, for each type of attack scenario.

I guess those three things you mention can go a long way to not being considered as a victim at all. And that can be good. But for those that find themselves being selected, a more specific approach needs to be utilised for each type of violence.

But I find your comments interesting. I am no expert on this. What do others think?

 

a

 

Only just seen this thread.

An interesting clip. Different types of violence do go for different targets. I didn't have the sound up initially and pinged the subject as a potential victim the moment I saw him.

I do feel though that if you go too 'alpha male' and adopt too cocky body language and make too much eye contact in the wrong places, you are going to attract violence just as appearing to weak can draw attention in other places.

There are times when bodyguards/security need to be a visible burly presence, and other times when you fail to notice they are there unless you know what to look for, they just melt into the background.

As with everything it is about balance. Body language that shows confidence, athleticism and external awareness goes a long way. You don't need to strut, make prolonged eye contact etc to avoid attracting scavengers or insulting the ego of the pack leaders.

 

what a great post!

the science of body language (in reference to potential victim-hood) is something that has been an intense interest to me and something I've incorporated in my out-of-dojo training everyday. to the extent that my dad once asked me, as we walked through a parking lot, what I was looking around for.

i never, however, considered that such behavior could actually attract some punk to engage me. stopping to consider, though, i can easily see that having a "weaker" body language and behavior can at least help to protect someone from a "you stepped on my shoe, now im gonna kick your ass" type altercation.

as you put it, the key is in recognition and adaptability. cuz as soon as you leave the club/bar/etc you cant have the same behavior; else you attract the mugging type of altercation.


Osu!

 

Hi Adam (altc)

I don't think we're a million miles away from each other in what we're saying.

OK, but its worth bearing in mind that this can still apply when there is no external crowd as such. The 'crowd' may simply be the aggressor's ego.

These are the situations that I'm not too worried about. There's no doubt that this scenario is what occurs in the great majority of male v male violence. We see it in many species and, as you rightly indicate, the posturing phase is designed to reduce the risk of serious injury to either partner.

But there are a significant minority of individuals who don't fit this mold. They're quite happy to hurt you and they don't mind if there's a significant disparity in perceived 'fitness' between you and them. They can still gain kudos with their pack (or just in their own mind) by succeeding in a vicious attack against an unprepared, distracted or 'unfit' individual. To my mind these are the ones to watch for, you're less likely to meet them but much more likely to be badly hurt if you do.

Agreed, generally if you follow the rules you'll lose property but escape serious injury. That said, nowadays I know there are muggers who injure you first, then ask for your goods - that way you're very likely to comply.

I don't dispute that the two situations (or 3 as I've broken it down) are quite different in terms of the aggressors intent, risk of injury and even victim selection process.

This is the bit that I don't buy. In my experience the same approach works to 'fail the interview' in all these situations. I'm convinced that appearing strong and confident doesn't incite alpha male attacks (if it did I'd get no end of aggravation). But looking cocky and arrogant (as JWT points out) would do the job nicely. There's a sharp difference between calm confidence and cocky arrogance - and I think we can all read this in a person's body language.

I agree that calmness, confidence and awareness should be 'always on'. This will deter the vast majority of aggressors well before even getting to the 'verbal' stage of a confrontation. They'll just select a different victim/target instead.

But even once its past that stage I've found that you can still fail the interview with a 'one size fits all' approach:
1. The posturing male is calmed down (usually to his relief) by your calm confident approach
2. The scroat without a conscience is put off by your calm refusal to 'put on the back foot' and gives up because he can't find an opening that doesn't involve him being hit first.
3. The mugger is (hopefully) put off because he can see you're onto his game and ready for him before he's declared his intent.

In all instances its a good idea to give the aggressor a way out that their ego can cope with.

The differences for me come after this point:
1. If its a mugger and they've made their play do you decide to hand over the goods or give an aggressive refusal
2. If it becomes physical how severe is your response - the aggressor's intent has some influence here but is only part of the picture.

I might occasionally take a more aggressive stance before we get to this point, but will only do so when I'm confident that their fear will win out over the direct affront to their ego.

These are my thoughts anyway, for what their worth.

Mike

 

Hey Mike. I dont really disagree with anything that you have written there. And one thing I will mention, you have already touched on.

When I consider the 'Alpha Male' and 'Predatory', I consider these the broad generalisation of the types of attacks. You said that the Alpha Male attack is very common and also that you are not too concerned with them. I too am not too concerned about this type of violence. My lifestyle will rarely put me in a position where this will come up. I simply dont go to places and do activities where this type of violence plays out.

I consider the two types of attack I mentioned before the broad norms. As in these are the two main types of violence humans engage in with each other. But as you rightly said, there are a whole load of other forms of violence. These may each be a very small number of the overall types of violence humans engage in with each other but for sure, there are other more dangerous types.

I feel it is important for people to step back a little and firstly realise that the two types (or 3 as you say), we have been discussing are the most common types, by a long way. It is way to simplify (whilst trying not to oversimplify), the nature of human violence in the community today.

Once we can see how these two types lay out around the world and accept that these two cover most forms of violent crime, we can then look deeper. And this is the area you have been talking about. And I agree, these minority types of violence can be much more dangerous. I just feel it important to highlight to people that the two types are the most common. I dont want people to feel that it is a confusing subject or complex. Deep down it can be, but overall it is not so much.

You are right Mike, in that there are some who will use violence first and ask questions later. Ive seen CCTV footage of a group of three walking up behind a group of about two or three and just going straight in and stabbing one of the other guys to death. This was in the UK. It was completely unprovoked. The victim group did not even see the attackers. There was no eye balling or verbal discussion or anything.

There are also psychopaths who just have no empathy or emotion towards other humans. They do not have that normal inbuilt inhibition to hurting or killing another human. They are out there.

So there are those extremes. And there are those that fit within that overall two main types of attacker. And then there are those in between the extremes and the norms. Those who do not fit into any neat little labels we can use. But again, these are the minority.

Once people can see that there are only two main types of violence and this covers the majority of violence, we can work towards tailoring our training to counter the most likely form of attack, which is via one of these two, depending on our own individual lifestyles.

Once our training has covered the most likely form of attack, we should also consider and prepare for a more lethal and unpredictable form of attack, even though it is much less common. As you rightly say Mike, these can be much more lethal.

Oh, and just one other thing, when I talk about deterring a predatory attack, I am simply talking about appearing to be a hard target, looking up and around, be confident, walk with some purpose, all of this subtle and not overbearing or b grade acting, not strutting, not look cocky and arrogant.

Whereas for a alpha (or beta) type encounter, I still think it better not to appear to be anything at all. Dont even be recognised. As jwt said in the bodyguard example, simply melt into the background.

So I dont disagree with what you are saying at all. None of what you have said is a no-no in my eyes at all. I just still think a slightly different approach to both types of attacker can be better, built on (or tailored or modified slightly) that constant calm, able and relaxed confidence.

I dont have the perfect answer as to how to react to each type of violence and it wil largely depend on the individual. Some can be aggressive to an attacker to put them off. Some people cant pull this off. Some people can make jokes where others cant pull this off. Others can use language really well. Some people are short and can use that, others are large and can use that.

As long as the nature of the possible encounter is understood, the individual can tailor what works best for them and attempt to avoid or de-escalate in their own way that works best for them.

 

Hi Adam

Happy New Year!

This is the nub of our difference in approach. I'm not sure how to appear 'nothing at all' without also giving off 'essence of victim'. But I think I can deter the predator whilst not at the same time inviting the alpha/beta encounter. It won't always work, but it is pretty reliable.

I have however been able to melt into the background (while still being totally switched on) in group situations.

And I've seen people who could only be regarded as omegas being selected for ego-related assaults against all odds.

No doubt variations in approach will suit different people. The main determinant for the aggressive response I think is simply whether you can induce enough fear to outweigh the aggressor's a) ego or b) desire to take from you whatever it is they want. Ego will be easier to over-rule if they're alone.

As for language I think that what is said is by far the least important aspect. The way that you say it is much more important IME and is just another part of the overall body language to me.

I don't disagree with this statement, I just think that the problem can be simplified to a one-size-fits-all approach, which is a) fit for purpose and b) prevents logjam at the critical moment.

Mike

 

Hey Mike, happy new year to you too!

In Alpha (beta) Male type encounters it is very possible to not be noticed at all. These types of encounters mostly happen when lots of people are around. That is the nature of these encounters. Simply (not really simple, it takes some practise and deliberate effort), adopt the mannerisms, body language and general 'air' of what most of the people in the group. It is the ones who stand out or 'offend' the alpha or beta which generally trigger an aggressive response. It can also happen often as a result of an argument. So not getting in arguments is another great way not to get noticed.

So when you say you are not sure how to appear nothing at all without giving off a victim scent, I get confused because then you talk about being able to melt into the background in group situations. Perhaps our perceptions of these encounters are different. Thats all cool.

Maybe you were talking about Predatory type attack environments when saying it is hard to not be noticed. And that is true. Generally there are very few or no people around in these types of attacks except the attacker (s) and you. You WILL get noticed. And that is where not looking like a victim is important. Look like someone that will be a risky score for them. Although that wont really matter if there are 6 of them... Just not being there is the best approach.

I think again it depends on the type of encounter. For a predatory attack, I agree. What you say is not so important, though it can help at the 'interview stage'. But how you say something is more important.

But for alpha (beta) male type violence, what you say can really help quite a lot, along with appropriate body language and tone etc. explaining you were staring at him because you have had a rubbish day because you just found out today you think youre wife might be cheating on you is one good way to disarm an aggressor and lets him keep face. I cant remember who I heard that response from. I didnt come up with that myself. It may have been Richard Dmitri, not sure. I think it is a good option. Not so much if you are out with your wife... Thats just an example for one situation.

There are lots of things we can say in various situations that will help disarm an aggressors intent to escalate to violence and de-escalate the whole situation. Body language can help but saying the right things can really compound our chances of avoiding a violent confrontation. More so in alpha (beta) male type encounters.

Interesting stuff.

 

Hi Adam

I wouldn't put too much store in that. I've experienced them both in crowd or group situations, but also in isolation.

I see where you're coming from - safety in numbers so to speak. I can't say I've ever tried it, but my experience is still that although I might 'stand out' from a group by my usual body language I would not be the one to cause 'offence' to a passing antagonist looking for an alpha male confrontation.

That I can wholeheartedly agree with

When I spoke of melting into the background I was thinking of specific situations I've experienced - there's a group or crowd of people, who may or may not be composed of smaller groups with their own allegiances. Something kicks off, or is about to. Typically then most people will a) gawp at the action and/or b) fail to notice what's going on at the periphery. This is the point at which I melt into the background. I try to get to a position where my back is protected and I can maintain all round vigilance - not just the centre of the action that everyone else is watching. Any scroat who focusses on me at that point can see from my body language that I'm switched on and aware of them. But my relative lack of motion (compared to others present) combined with having moved to the physical periphery of what's going on makes me less noticeable. People who are physically closer to, and focussed on, the main action present a much easier and more obvious target.

This may seem to be a very specific scenario, but its actually a situation I've come across a number of times, with variations. My approach above definitely saved my bacon more than once.

Typically yes, but again I've seen - or know of - predation with plenty of people present.

Again, agreed wholeheartedly!

Sorry to be hard work, but I don't perceive much difference between the two. I grant that there is a chance with alpha aggression that you can strike up some sort of rapport with the antagonist. But that's an approach that I would use to build on my initial verbal interaction - if I felt at that point that the confrontation could go that way. Of course, there ain't no rapport to be had with the predator.

When I say 'it doesn't matter what you say' I don't really mean to suggest that you should be verbally antagonistic whilst talking in a calm, conciliatory manner - although even that can work in the right circumstances.

I think you should generally attempt to calm things down by both WHAT you say and HOW you say it, I just think that HOW is by far the most important.

By way of example: As a young bouncer (in charge of the crew) I was asked by a colleague to come to the front door to talk to a group of lads who were determined to come in (without tickets) and wouldn't move out of the way of the door. I went to the door and explained to them that they didn't have tickets, the event was sold out and so there was no way they were coming in - so they might as well go somewhere else while there was still time to get in another venue. They left after a couple of minutes. My colleague was stunned - he'd been saying the same thing for about 15-20 minutes, backed up by several other security staff, yet to no effect.

What did I do that was different? It was simply the way that I said it. I exuded the calm authority of someone who was in charge and knew it. I told them they weren't coming in - without aggression but with absolute certainty. They took note and left.

Mike