All martial arts evolved from Kung fu?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by WhereMyRiceGo, Aug 18, 2005.

  1. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Yes. Why do you say JJ descends from a single subset of Shaolin kung fu? And what of the obvious similarities in JJ to Japanese sword fighting?


    Yes. Why do you say it descends from White Crane?


    Yes. The history of judo is well-established. Kano took from Japanese jujitsu.
     
  2. TheDarkJester

    TheDarkJester 90% Sarcasm, 10% Mostly Good Advice.

    So you mean to tell me, that some island(s), isolated from the mainland since man can possibly remember, came up with its own imagination, a system of barehanded fighting that resembles White Crane kung fu... And that they came up with an entire system of locks and throws without any outside influence or importation of any skill? Let me ask you this. What makes you think that Jujitsu, or any base style with the exception of Aikido didn't have its roots in old China?

    And in regards to it being a "small subset".. I hardly consider Qinna to be small by any means. Its large enough to be a massive system all on its own.
     
  3. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    No, it's the other way around. :p Chinese people, separated from the Japanese, somehow came up with a fighting style that resembles what the Japanese were doing. :D


    Every book and every magazine article that I've ever read leads me to that conclusion.
    Who taught the Apache Indians the rear leg sweep? Or angles of attack in blade fighting? Did some Chinese kung fu warriors immigrate to the American Southwest before the days of the American cowboy? :eek: I think not.

    Who taught the European knights to fight the way they fought? Did Chinese chin-na warriors migrate to Germany or England or France, and teach "jujitsu" to them as well? :eek: I think not.

    We all have the same body: two arms, two legs, elbow joints, knees, etc. Of course we'll do the same things.


    Chin-na is a subset of the very broad Shaolin kung fu system. I think we both know that.
     
  4. pmitch89

    pmitch89 Thats Nucking Futs!!

    Okinawan karate is not japanese, its Okinawan :D . And your right, the unarmed combat side of karate did develop from kung-fu.

    aikiMac has a better point though, what about Wrestling? It has some similarities to some take-downs in Jujutsu, doesn't mean wrestling is derived from JJ, or vise-versa.
     
  5. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Okinawan Karate. Shotokan makes a different argument.

    Look folks. Human body is pretty much the same everywhere:
    2 arms
    2 legs
    head
    all connected by a central core

    The fact is that there are only so many ways to break it down. And even fewer efficient ways of doing it. Because of that, it's easy to understand why similiar systems grew up in numerous geographically distributed places.

    What complicates things are myths and in particular creation myths. Every creation myth begins with common ancestry - that all things spring from a single root. While that might be the case for a species, that just doesn't effectively work for cultural productions like martial arts.

    - Matt
     
  6. Ziro

    Ziro Valued Member


    Funnily enough, if you look at the history of Native Americans, then you'll find there is strong evidence to suggest that they emigrated from Asia. Although, that doesn't mean they brought CMA with them.
     
  7. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    No, it sure doesn't. :D
     
  8. Kraken

    Kraken Valued Member

    Most oriental Martial Arts are based on european systems anyway, so saying Jui jitsu is influenced by Shaolin is stupid because shaolin itself was taken from the Indian Kaalariparit wich in turn was based on western styles such as wrestling,boxing,pankration.....Iam not saying that the chinese didnt have their own defence system but they took knowledge given to the to further refine it.By no means is Kung Fu the original martial art that everything is based upon ,Penchak Silat is thought to out date kung fu anyway..............
     
  9. TheDarkJester

    TheDarkJester 90% Sarcasm, 10% Mostly Good Advice.


    May I ask what makes you think that? I'm just wondering, because its not everyday someone spouts off rubbish like that without a good reason for thinking so.
     
  10. medi

    medi Sadly Passed Away - RIP

    Someone's probably said this already... to say one contempory fighting style was derived from another contempory fighting style is as absurd as saying "we are descended from Chimpanzees".

    Just as we and the great apes share a common ancestor (to us, a slightly ape-like one, to the apes, a slightly human-like one), what we see in various contemporary styles may have a common root. But it's impossible to say which of the current styles is the closest to that original root. Geographical migrations don't really mean anything... the 'original' art may have migrated elsewhere while those left at home developed an altered version of the original. So who's to say which art is derived from which?
     
  11. ryanTKD

    ryanTKD New Member

    Me.
     
  12. Kraken

    Kraken Valued Member



    May i ask what makes you think it is rubbish? ,What makes it sound so unbeliveable?...........tell me this ,but for now that is what ive heard and my opinion on the suject.
     
  13. aikiMac

    aikiMac aikido + boxing = very good Moderator Supporter

    Perhaps it was this line: "Most oriental Martial Arts are based on european systems anyway."

    Not exactly the sort of thing that one hears and goes, "Oh, yes, of course that's right."
     
  14. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Because anyone with a lick of historical training and knowledge of the history of these areas can immedately point out 101 reasons why the theory leaks. And by leaks, I mean has holes in it that an ocean could pour through.

    Everyone, please do be repeating after me: THERE IS NO SINGLE ROOT MARTIAL ART. Period. Silk Road and Trading theories don't hold water. There are too many historical records of proto arts developing in parrellel in different regions.

    Anyone who tries to say that X art is the root art is ignoring that history in a poor attempt to prop up their art as somehow more legitmate. And please don't get me started on how the modern forms of "western styles such as wrestling,boxing,pankration" have absolutely nothing to do with their ancient forms.

    - Matt
     
  15. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    hehehe! i see you getting really exaspirated bro. i find it hard to deal with this whole "motherart" theory. why is it so hard to believe that combat is developed rather organically and can evolve anywhere and everywhere dioctated by the circumstances of the time and place. how hard is it to understand that? how hard is it to understand that combat evolves through contact? that any combat that doesn't evolve will die out?
     
  16. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter


    BWHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

    wake up.
    in all senses of the word. :p
     
  17. TheDarkJester

    TheDarkJester 90% Sarcasm, 10% Mostly Good Advice.


    Its nice to know that you can ask a question to answer another question and completely disregard the topic at hand. I wonder who taught you how to be such a master debater.


    Say hello to your future ex-wife for me :)
     
  18. firecoins

    firecoins Armchair General

    I don't think martial arts evolved at all. I think an intelligent designer put them here on Earth.
     
  19. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Damn! That's freaking hilarious!

    We've got a martial creationist here!! ;)
     

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