All martial arts evolved from Kung fu?

dang! beaten to the punch! you took the words right out of my mouth.

 

I'll let you have them back....
but its gonna cost ya! :Angel:

 

I think china is more of a crossroad of eastern martial arts.

I mean when you have several countries at your borders that all have worthwhile martial arts, I think techniques will be exported and imported.

But i am no military historian. It just seems common sense that if a western TDK practionner decides to do a shin muy thai kick because it looks effective, I wonder why a chinaman in its 2000+ history didnt think the same thing.

 

Its fairly easy to believe India influence kung fu since India also influenced religious beliefs all the way to Japan. Buddism and martial arts seem to go hand and hand in some martial arts.

China wasn't always one state. Their were many small states with wars. China has invaded Southeast Asia so its possible Muay Thai was influneced by some kung fu variation.

Greeks and Romans and the Crusades and colonization, Hellenic and Islamic and Persian martial arts spread as far as the Phillipines...Silat and Escrima.

 

Since i'm to lazy to read everyone's thought, I do agree in some part of every martial art evolving from kungfu in china but some i do not agree and here's why.

Back in the day when China had its biggest empire, China included thailand, vietnam, korea, japan, mongolia, and possibly india.

Japan was created when the emperor sent a group of people from china to find a medicine that would make the emperor live forever. After finding out there was no such thing, they were afraid of telling the emperor there was no such thing because back then if you upset the emperor you would be killed. So then the group of people escaped to an island which is now called Japan carrying some of the skills they've learned in China. Although a few centuries later the Chinese brought Kungfu into Japan which evolved into now what is called Karate.

Boxing was originally evolved through the Greeks.
Capoiera was created when African Slaves tried to escape from the slave masters. They tried covering self defense martial arts into a dancing form.

My theory is most of the martial arts evolved through China because europeans wanted to trade with the Chinese so probably they learned a few kungfu skills from the Chinese.

Boxing probably somewhat came from China. Boxing originated as a sport but maybe some of the athletes knew kungfu?

Kungfu was probably inspired the Romans because the Hans (a group savaging rebels from asia) attacked the empire at one point.
The Romans and the Chinese Empire barely fought off the Hans at the time.
Hans could of traveled through africa at one point.

 

I'm sorry, but that whole thing just made my eyes cross. I would suggest going back and studying your history books a bit better....

 

Again I state that it is better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought a fool than speak and remove all doubt.

No offense Aaron, but in one post you managed to cite myth as history (the founding of Japan), somehow mix Europeans into the creation of Kung Fu, and butcher established fact in numerous ways.

- Matt

 

Dude, did you even read my post? Sounds like the answer is no. But hey, maybe you can tell us at what time the Ancient Greeks, Cretes, Egyptians, Babylonians, and Africans entered China to prove your theory. Otherwise follow Matt's advice. If you can't read the thread, don't contribute, it makes you look utterly foolish.

 

Aaron (And anyone else whose thinking about posting without reading), while some threads do allow for this, it's really a bad idea on any thread dealing with historical references the jump in without reading. The only worse thing is to bring the "I think X" without any real back up or the ability to cite content. As the above has shown, that's just asking to be called ignorant.

BKG's totally right!

- Matt

 

Geez, way to make an example out of me. :cry:

And that was even polite for me :woo:

I'm gonna go hide in the corner eating popcorn while this unfolds

 

Back in the days of my History GCSE's I studied 'Medicine throught time', we were given a text book called "Medicine & Health Throught Time" by Dawson Coulson

Well my point is that on page 23 of this text book it says:

"Were there medical developments in other places? Egypt was not the only early society to have doctors and new medical ideas as you can see from source 1-5"

Source 5 - "An illustration showing acupunture points. Acupuncture was used in China well before 1000BC. Chinese doctors stopped pain by pressing on certain points of the body. At first they used sharp flints and later metal needles"

(This tells me that the Ancient Chinese we around as far back as the Egyptians.)


And then on page 35, it says:

"Egypt was conquered by the Greeks in the fourth century BC. The Greek Leader, Alexander the Great founded the city of Alexandria in 331BC. Medical writings were brought to the library from India, China, Mesopotamia, Egypt and Greece."

(This could meant that the Greeks would have had other influences from the Chinese as well.)


Also back on page 15 it says:

"Around 330BC Alexander the Great extended the Greek Empire all the way to the borders of India and China"

The Greeks could have easily walked over the boarder to enter China.

 

That's a lot of "could have", "may have" and "might have done" there!

There is nothing at all to suggest that the Greek war machine was in anyway influenced by the Chinese. Why would they? They had just ran roughshod over most of the civilised world!

And although the Chinese may have been contemporary to the Egyptians there is no known connection anywhere between them (unless you believe the "lost civilisation" cobblers). Your theory still rests on massive amouts of conjecture and speculation...and also fails to explain how other cultures with absolutely NO connection to the Orient evolved their systems (such as the Native American cultures or African tribes).

 

My responses in bold

 

Whoa, no, wait! I was agreeing with you. And after reading with the post that wasn't clear. You were totally right in your posting, so put the popcorn down and get back in the game champ!

- Matt

 

I wan't suggesting the 'Greek war machine' was influenced by the Chinese.

I didn't say there was a connection between the Egyptians and the Chinese, I was merely pointing out that were around at the same time. To help illustrate how far back the Chinese went.

The only theory I posted was:

"(This could meant that the Greeks would have had other influences from the Chinese as well.)",

and I agree that it is a very broad statement, as it could include influences as minor as eye brow styles, or inflences such as some philosophies, Gods, food, fashion etc...


The reason for my post was to show that the Greeks did have the chance to cross over into China. That was the reason I only quoted a small part of BKG's post, and concluded my post with the line "The Greeks could have easily walked over the boarder to enter China.". Please read it again.

I am sorry that I wasnt clear enough........my apologies

 

to all,
remember this fact:
Did the eqyptians conquer most of the world with their "stick fighting art ? "
I rest my case!
As for the greeks and pankration,
True, it was around 5 B.C.,
But, the shaolin have been inventing/refining kungfu since 200 A.D.
and have created over 500 styles of kungfu, weird ones for example, the butterfly,duck,dog,wolf, even the humming bird.(???? never seen it, but heard from Master tahk Weh Yon it exists, and his lineage is from shaolin temple.)
So, just a friendly reminder when it comes to ancient egyptian stick fighting.

 

I'm a little curious to see evidence about any county "conquoring" the world with a commonly practiced martial art. The Egyptian EMPIRE (yes it was an empire) had a long history and was eventually over taken by another, which was also the case for the Greeks, the Romans, the Persians... down the line.

I'm still trying to figure out what the case was.

Uhhh... ummm... no. Simply put, no. A large number of arts have a Shaolin root, but that's not all the arts in China. You've immediately dismissed the Taoist/Wu Dan arts and the Muslim arts. And also the arts that have little to no temple root, such as Xing Yi or Baji. And I hate to say it but the Shaolin folks weren't conquoring anyone either, just ask the Qings who got far further along with modern military weapons (read as guns) than with empty hand combatives. Not to mention the fact that Shaolin was effectively all but stamped out of existance in China by the turn of the pervious century.

- Matt

 

my 2 cents

I read that latest research in china suggests that oldest tracable MA came from india, some kind of Boxing and/or wrestling ( cant remember).

But then again whose to say they didnt have some kind of Ma in Africa way back in the day, they didnt have any contact to other continensts i thnink.

Dunno about Egypt seems to me like they'd probably have some kind of old MA to.

I'ma see if I can dig up the book I got the info on the chinese research from, think it was comprehensive asian fighting arts.

Ill post the quotes later.

 

1. Stick fighting is still around. Who's to say the Egyptians didn't EXPORT it? And unless you've been to Africa and can prove they do ONLY Chinese arts, you're still wrong!

2. Boxing and Wrestling are still around, and still older. So far, one of the oldest forms of MA known to mankind. And oh, yeah, incorporated into Greek culture. So the fact you can't trace it directly is rather meaningless. I can just as easily trace it through Greek and Roman culture!

3. You've forgotten WuDan, Taoist arts, Muslim Arts from the Middle East, and Omei/Emai arts, plus Mongolian Grappling arts. There is more to Kung Fu than "Shaolin".

4. You have no case, your historical information is woefully inadequate, and you've presented nothing but myth and speculation.

5. Oh, yeah, the Chinese did not conquer the world with their ancient chinese secrets. Last time I checked, I speak English, and nope, still live in an independant state!

 

Even though people dont agree with me, w/e.

But china and egypt are the oldest countries standing today.

Stick fighting....hmmm.... I think china used stick fighting too, example: Farmers. They used the Staff/Stick to fight off soldiers, rebels.

And sorry spelling error, for the "hans" it was actually the Huns fighting the Romans is True because they attacked constantinople. Search google
The Romans supposedly paid the Huns to stop from attacking the them.

The Han Dynasty traded goods with the Romans.