Alive self defence training with out sparring?

I haven't ignored the paragraphs I haven't quoted but I think some points are raised more than once.

But aren't your lessons also planned? Don't your students also choose to be there? Isn't the activity low-risk for them as well?

Further, in actual full-contact competition FIGHTS (as opposed to sparring in the lesson) the guy you're up against doesn't know you and doesn't care for your physical well-being in the way that a training partner would. He's going to try and hurt you as much as the rules will allow. Sure, you know you're not going to die... but it's a much scarier prospect than training, isn't it?

I think we need to differentiate between martial arts where you're forced to follow a certain idealised way of fighting and those in which performance is the be-all and end-all (and is constantly tested).

But still... I know it's just my mate, don't I? I know this is all just a training exercise. And conversely I recommend watching the body language used by MMA fighters before the fights start - particularly people like Wanderlei Silva and Sergei Kharitonov.

Don't get me wrong though - I think you've raised some interesting points about sparring and I'm not saying your training is bad or anything.

 

From my perspective this is all essentially one point. It doesn't matter that you know it's just a training exercise, it doesn't matter that it's your mate, it doesn't matter that you can trust that you're not going to get severely injured although (as with contact sparring and even more so as with competition fighting) you can expect to receive pain (and in fact as the role playing attacker in a scenario you know you're going to get pain) . Scenario training works because it replicates environmental conditions that adversely effect the performance of people that are unaccustomed to them. A majority of these conditions are not present in full contact sparring.

Your mention of the body language used by some fighters before a match does not take account of the different distance, the different verbal, the similar height and weight, and the absence of the pressure not to fight - which is a large anxiety factor.

That's a reasonable point, but it ignores the elephant in the room. Just because performance is the be all and end all, and is continually tested, does not mean it is going to make you better at self defence. It's going to make you better at defending against and fighting with the techniques of that ruleset. There will be an overlap, but it's not the same thing.

Timmyboy, I appreciate that you are a fan of full contact fighting. It is a good way to improve your combative skills. However self protection and defence are about fighting in a different context, and more importantly about deterring and avoiding fights. That requires different knowledge and skill sets and puts a different mental framework and different pressures in place during the pre fight, fight and post fight.

For now I think you need to continue to train hard and spar often, but you also need to go away and do some research on scenario training, stress reactions in combative situations and self protection in general.

 

If I'm ever in Nottingham again for whatever reason I'll try and check your class out.

I've always had a big problem with this.

EDIT: Although I'm starting to come round to your general point (I see the value in training to deal with intimidation) the only thing I don't understand is how you can train in a way that simulates not wanting to be there and not being prepared to fight in an unplanned situation - which are supposedly shortcomings of sparring - when your students have freely chosen to come to your lesson and know what's going on.

Let me be clear though, I am splitting hairs here - I think your training looks good.

 

All training is compromise.

One of the things I can do is gear up everyone the same and give each person a private briefing for a role playing scenario. That way no-one knows 'who' the aggressor is - sometimes not even the expected aggressor. I once had a scenario run for 15 minutes of argument and posturing with the students flooded with adrenaiine, all desperately working their verbal and body language skills because no-one knew who if anyone was going to kick off.

So - simulating not wanting to be there. This can be achieved by putting pressure on the person to avoid fighting at all costs. This, in the face of sustained close quarter verbal abuse, can create anxiety levels identical to a real situation. Of course for some, just being subjected to an angry person shouting and swearing in their face can do this. You can also have a mate trying to pull them away, restricting their movement, compromising their defence against the potential aggressor which will raise anxiety.

Knowing what's going on... not always. The main safety supervisor for a situation will always know what's going on - I wouldn't say the same for all the participants. They are having to react to conversation, questions, posturing, distractions, multiple people. They don't know necessarily if it's going to be one on one, two on one, three on one or two on two. They don't know what, if any verbal tactic might shut down the scenario. They don't know if the person has a concealed weapon or not.

You can't precisely, safely, replicate real life. What you can do is devise ways to get as close to it as possible in order to foster and develop the necessary attributes.

 

Very well said Jwt,

Heres a clip from some of the one on one sessions in my dungeon(garage)
we use various props padding to help replicate whats needed,I think the other important bit is for the student to visualise every drill,the two older guys have been training around 10 months,and the older one Keith is 67 hes a real inpiration
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qof4GePh6Yc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qof4GePh6Yc[/ame]

 

JKD Without Sparring?

I can't imagine someone saying that they know or train in JKD and they don't spar. To me sparring is a necessity! Sure you can learn all the techniques but in my opinion you need actual physical contact to simulate what it would be like in a real confrontation.

How is anyone going to know how they are going to react unless they actually have some kind fight simulation to go by. Sparring does this to an extent. I think it is a mistake to just learn technique without any type of practical application. Just my opinion.

 

The fact his video's are now private viewing only shows he is not keen on being found out in my view.

If you put it up there you should stand by it. For me self defence is about getting results and as he says in and out.

Trouble is if you hit someone and they don't go down as people are not static targets. Then you are essentially in the 2nd phase of a fight. They are doing stuff and you are, this is pretty much sparring - hit and don't get hit.

Its not sound advice to assume you do the 1 punch ko every time and to me you need to spar to see how your body reacts and what good or bad techniques it comes up with when your tired or being taken to the cleaners.

Sparring is a tool but it is a really valid tool and if reality based self defence is what your doing then sparing is a must. Put rubbish in you get rubbish out and if you only hit people who don't move then if someone moves your in trouble.

 

not a fan of this type of thing because the attacker in these scenarios always seems to go down after the first few shots, and I have only seem that happen rarely, never seen it in person. Human beings, especially raged up or drunk one can take hella lot of damage. have seen guys take shot after shot to the head and still keep comming.forget giant bulletmen suits and ahave an animal day. start it off scenario based. both wear a bit of padding and then duke it out. read animal day by geoff thompson. if you need advise on how to set it up.

 

This type of event has been made redundant by the cage.If people are up for a legal scrap they will take up MMA and compete against other like-minded individuals.I know an instructor who used to do these Animal Days and he dosen't follow that model these days as he knows its only suitable for a limited number of people.

 

while that may be true, I still dont think the static target, giant headed bullet men, attacker falls down after a couple of attacks and holds head type of thing is a good idea.

 

I did some bulletman type training a while back. my problems are as follows, at least with the training I did and how it was run.

1.unrealism, the attacker attacks the target, takes a whack or two in the noggin and falls down clutching their head while the target is then told to Back off and scan. Never seen this happen and it would NEVER happen with some of the women participating.

2. The gear itself gets the practioner used to a bigger target for the head, and then how will they react when their target in real life is smaller and moving faster (guy in suite has next to no head movement) and even if the guy in the suite is giving it a fair go, the weight of the head peice will throw him off balance and knock him over, you can knock a bulletman guy with a light shove in the head in the right direction in essence its like training for tennis with a beachball and an opponent in splints. you will not get a sense of what it is really like and you will think you can play the game..

 

as i said above, minimal padding, two guys realistic start, eg conversational argument or confrontation at a bar etc, then as close to all out as you can go without killing each other both traing to win, not one guy being a bad guy and one guy being a good guy, just two guys fighting or a few guys fighting. i havnt seen all the bulletman training systems but alot of what i have seen looks like self defence larping. I mean a 250 pound guy is not gonna drop and hold his head crying when a women slaps him round the head. not gonna happen, probably wouldnt drop for a shot in the pills till about 3 mins after the fact either.

 

I would think training for a one hit knockout or for your attacker to cower after a few shots would be a foolish approach to self defence, but hey maybe thats just me.
Yea in other approaches you get hurt, but you are going to get hurt in a real encounter and in any martial art, so if you are not prepared to take some damage dont train. And while your armour may let you take and give full force attacks, no one in the situation expereince s the feel or even the targeting aspect of a real encounter, guys dont move like they do in giant foam suits, or throw punches like they are hitting foam. you can work an escape angle into what i described, one guy trying to stop the other guy, or a group. but the giant suits create unrealistic expectations, creat problems targeting and just seem like a bad idea to me. This is just my opinion though but head movement, quickness, and multiple attacks without the attacker going down feature quite heavily in the fights I have seen in pubs, bars etc. none of this seem to be simulated in these bulletmen things.

This is just my opinion however, I could be completely wrong and if you are interested in this type of thing, try it out , draw your own conclusions.