Aikido woman felt discriminated against

There is still an inherent paradox even in that (somewhat nonsensical) interpretation - and it also does not hold up under even cursory historical scrutiny

The Koran is absolute in what it purports to be

 

The nature of debate is to escalate though. "

- Not really, I've seen lots of debates where it was lovely and pleasant, Doesn't always have to escalate and end up in a big mess.

 

I am not getting into the veracity of the claim, merely the nature of the claim itself

No Christian can claim the bible was written by or dictated by God because the bible itself clearly states it isn't the case...the Koran explicitly states it IS dictated by the big G (well Big A actually)

The reality is separate from the actual claim of course, but is a debate for another time

 

You would think martial artists, people who train hard for years to learn something, would understand the value in working hard toward understanding something they're unlearned in instead of jumping to conclusions. It's no different than claiming you have more knowledge about your sensei's art on your first day of training. As such, why are so many non-Muslims constantly misconstruing Islamic faith? The reason why there's such a huge misunderstanding about Islam in the West is because the majority of non-Muslims haven't done any sufficient amount of studying in Islam. It's clearly evident by people's reactions and comments both online and in person.

As for Sonja Powers, the little girl is really in need of some religious tolerance. While I'm not completely on the same side as the new student, he did politely make the requests before taking lessons, to which the sensei did also say that the student had no issues with any of the other students either (implicitly indicating that the issue Sonja Powers had was her own):

I have two points I want to make:

1) A man not touching another woman's hand is anything but sexist. You can make the argument that it could be segregational (which I don't believe it is for the following reason), but that's not the driving force behind the belief. The Islamic code of conduct for both men and women in Islam is that they should stay away from unnecessary physical contact with non-mahram (a term to describe people who you can marry, are not siblings, parents, or other immediate family). It goes for both men AND women in Islam. The belief is to preserve the sanctity and/or modesty of one's body solely for the enjoyment of your spouse (and immediate family is excluded because typically, most people don't have that type of intimate relationship within their own immediate family). Whether you agree with this sense of self-preservation (if you will) or not isn't the matter. The argument here is about religious tolerance and understanding, which miss Sonja Powers had absolutely none of.

2) Before I started taking lessons in Ninpo, I had also expressed to my to-be sensei that I was uncomfortable with bowing to the kamidana for religious purposes as well. I asked him if it was acceptable or not. He didn't question it at all and was absolutely accommodating. Instantly, I gained a tremendous amount of respect for him. It wasn't until just a week after I started where I learned what the purpose behind the bowing toward the kamidana really was about, so then I began doing it. As for bowing toward each other, this gesture is almost identical to shaking hands. This is where cultural tolerance and understanding should have come into play on the part of the new student. In Islam, bowing/prostrating is seen as submitting yourself to the will of a higher Being (in which case, you're not doing so when bowing to another student or sensei). Regardless, I can understand his discomfort and I respect his choice, even though I would argue with him that his understanding is off, the same as Professor Amir Hussain's thesis on the matter in that same article:

 

To be honest, most people are fully cognizant of women's rights in Islamic societies. We have seen what occurs in states that have adopted Sharia as the basis of their laws. Places like Afghanistan, Iran, Mauritania, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Sudan, and Yemen. Women are very definitely second-class citizens in Islamic states. We don't want that attitude creeping into European societies. When we allow Muslim men to treat women differently due to their sex we are telling them that discrimination is OK.

We don't want to live in a society where a womens testimony is worth as half as much as that of a mans.

and we don't want our society to become one where women are second class citizens. When you allow men to exclude women from activities on religious grounds, then that is a very dangerous precedent to set. "I can't touch you so I cannot practice Aikido with you" is not far from "because of my religion you must assign only male doctors and nurses to me in hospital" or "because my religion forbids me from touching non-mahram it is best that I do not employ any women".

 

Sandninjer - you mention that the female student lacked "religious tolerance and understanding" completely. Yet you then comment that in your personal case you mention "cultural tolerance and understanding" from the perspective of a new student.

It is the predominant culture of North America that men and women are treated equally. And no, in this case the female student was not treated equally compared to the male students. Whether the new male student intended it to be offensive of not is completely irrelevant.

From what I have read the female student was willing to give the islamic student some leeway regarding the practising of his interpretation of his faith. But when he did not change his attitude and instead took his religion openly to class in the form of promotional pamphlets it was the straw that broke the camels back so to speak, and then she started speaking out openly.

So who is the one more lacking in 'understanding' here?

 

Which one of those countries have you been to?

 

Correct. Both were wrong in their own ways though I feel more sympathetic toward the new student. As biased as it may appear, it's not because we're both Muslim, it's because I'm a strong supporter of having freedom of [peaceful] religion, especially in multi-cultural societies.

I still don't see how you're claiming the female student wasn't treated equally. She wasn't forced out of class, she wasn't asked to train in another corner, she wasn't asked to leave the school, she wasn't asked to stop training with guys completely, she was only asked to not train with a single student due to his own religious beliefs. If you're unable to see the world through people's intentions alone, then you don't have a mind outside the borders of North America.

 

I don't know if I'd call you "wrong", but I would think you had sexual neurosis and I would feel sorry for your wife. That is a very weird thing to get upset about.

And, correct me if I'm wrong, but did you just say that gynaecological examinations are the same thing as handshakes?

 

Read back and you will see my comments on the matter. Basically speaking she and the other females in the class were deprived a training partner where the male students were not.

Read the article again.
"Aiming to complete her training, Ms. Power nevertheless stayed in the school for another five months, but said her breaking point came when the male student began distributing religious literature."

In my opinion it's OK if you prefer your wife to see a female doctor. The error would be acting on that by trying to influence your wife's choice based on a feeling that has nothing to do with your wife's health or the expertise and experience of the doctor.

 

Absolutely, it should be your wife's decision who she is comfortable with in a medical situation, not any business of yours. The fact that you don't see the issue here is concerning. Also the fact that you posted up something stating:

is quite concerning. It smacks of the idea that men are meant to be the breadwinners and women have to sit at home and raise the kids. I tend to consider myself as a bit of a traditionalist, but you are coming across as having positively archaic opinions on gender roles. Complementarianism has pretty much vanished from the theologies of Christendom (thank goodness), although there are a few extremist hold-outs. In Islam, verse 4:34 still seems to be used to justify treating women as second-class citizens:

 

So why is it OK to touch men if you are a man?

 

Wait, so anyone who doesn't accept the beliefs of all others shouldn't be in a democracy?

That basically means that no-one belongs in a democracy. Which is actually quite accurate on a couple of levels.

 

The important bit (as I see it) is the bolded bit from Sandninjer's post. I suppose that according to orthodox Islamic beliefs you can't marry someone of the same gender, so touching them is OK.

 

But you can in several places in America .

Maybe, but it does come across to a lot of people as being unequal treatment based on sex, therefore it can come across as being unequal purely based on gender, therefore it's sexist. For a lot of people, that's no different from saying "I won't train with black people".

I thought that was the case but I wasn't sure. Thanks

Fair enough, but playing devils' advocate - by the looks of thing Sonja did stay at the same dojo for five months after he joined, which included 5 months of not being able to train with him because of his beliefs. If anything, I'd say that goes to show she did try to tolerate his beliefs for a time.

She left when he started taking it further and bringing in leaflets promoting his religion that included the phrasing that it was acceptable to "lightly strike your wife" (paraphrased) and that a woman who doesn't cover up "probably wants it" (again, paraphrased), which in pretty much any country I can think of still constitutes assault in the former and potential sexual harassment in the latter.

 

It's Aikido - a physical contact art so therefore contact is 100% necessary to develop in the art. Argument = invalid

 

You using fact & common sense in a religious argument?
You know that's now allowed!