Why do I get the distinct impression that most people view Aikidokas as martial ballarinas and think that aiki techniques should not have strength or intent behind their applications? The system was derived from aikijutsu and jujitsu and proper application of certain techniques still requires some phsyical effort. The religious and philosophical aspects of O Sensei seem to have resulted in Westerners losing the plot and associating Aikido with ball-room dancing. Aikido flows in a dojo as both uke and tori are working together but on the street things are different as the assailant is not compliant with your techniques. Proper dojo execution of aikido techniques requires that the uke resists enough so that the tori has to apply proper technique. Otherwise what is the point. We end up hearing from participants of other styles that Aikido is ineffective mainly due to the fact that the actual aikidoka in question has probably never had anyone actually resist their technique. This is not the styles fault, it is the practictioners. Train properly, and this is relevant to all styles as I know other practioners who struggle in 'real conflict', and all styles are effective. That is afterall why they were developed.
my friend who has researched on daitoryu showed me some moves that were modified in a way and my oh my was i blown away.
Trouble is its down to the organisations To ensure the schools are working as the style should be otherwise it ends up with the perception it has now - also weed out poor instructers and help them to get with it. This is somthing that other arts not just Aikido suffer with. My 2p worth
True Many Aikido people are lost with simple stuff like this. Still its better to enguage the person and what you are saying is VERY hard to do if the punches are thrown right. Tenkan I am not so keen on as you move yourself into a not so good side on position and possible you could be taken down where your art is little use on the floor.
..... and right into that left hook he was setting you up for by faking the cross Just shows how irrelevant "he does this so I'll do that" scenarios are.
sorry to beat you with a stick Yoda but we could argue this all day in one huge circle.... turns out I was prepared for the fake and decided instead to use an irmi technique on that left hook. Oops, he knew I would do that and had already moved into a leg trap. Lucky I expected that and the result was the both of us fighting without gain for months on end Matrix-stylee. Seriously, I still can't believe we are discussing whether a style is effective. Any style can ONLY be as effective as the exponent. Shall we start discussing whether a heavy caliber machine gun is really effective in combat or whether a kitchen knife is better at cutting or chopping (please no answers as I'm not that dumb)?
Thanks guys. Now and then I browse the Web for aikido discussions. The last one I found was Tung Fu. I wish I never found it. The TF veterans hurt my feelings by ridiculing me and ridiculing aikido. It’s “ineffective,” they all said. “In a real fight, it isn't worth toffee,” they said. (They’re Brits.) “Aikido serves no purpose for self-defence. In all other respects it is a fine past-time, but strictly speaking it should not be defined as a MARTIAL art,” they said. And on and on, and they posted personal attacks against me as well. In short, my feelings were deeply hurt by their rudeness and by, what I consider to be, their immature attitude toward the martial arts. The TF experience made me very appreciative of MAP. So, I thank you all for your welcoming nature and your respectful comments. I’m glad I found MAP, and this thread is an example of why I like MAP. And I agree with Scotsg1t too: Any style, be it aikido or muay thai or kali or anything, is only as effective as the exponent. I train with two dan-rank aikido guys whom I would not want to fight in a dark alley. I’ve also known people in several other martial arts whom I would not want to fight in a dark alley. All the arts are good. Speaking of aikido, I recently saw the “Takemusu” tape of O-Sensei made when he was 68-72 years old. I’ve seen enough professional boxing matches to know what “fast” is, but I tell you what, modern boxers have nothing on O-Sensei. That old man was fast. I would not want to fight him in a dark alley either.
Hey allo, just thought I'd ask y'all to evaluate the term "threat assessment"....a competent practititioner of aikibujitsu--samurai aikido--doesn't let a threatening presence close enough to jab before reacting. It's all about the spacing, gents....anyone on here ever heard about the concepts of "redundant safety" or "kirikesh?".....I realize that Obata-san's school of aikido is very different from what is taught widely........however, sooo much of what I'm taught in aikido can handle jabs it's ridiculous.it's in understanding aikido as a movement form as much as a dueling style........'cooperative aikido' that is 'all about the love and the universe' might falter against the random, aggressive nature of a street fighter, but old-school military aikibujitsu offers a bit more depth.
Dear All It was me that used the example of the Jab Cross - low kick as its something in all the Aikido schools I have done and I have not seen anyone defend against anything as obvious as a jab cross let alone the low kick. This is why I used it as there is a great empasis on the one shot attack and a hammer fist or hook or lapel grab etc. TF I post on as Sonshu and have posted on the Aikido thread and Yoda is right in saying what he did but I was looking at reading peoples replies and thoughts to see how people would deal with this sort of common attack. The guys on TF can be tough but don't let them bully you and there are some good things on it and experienced people there but its mostly a MMA site now.
I went to a Frank Doran seminar in Jan '03. He taught us a couple defenses to the jab-cross combination. However, none of my instructors to date have done it in our regular classes. That's to bad. I'd like to see more of it.
This is a really bad thing to say but I have seen some footage of Frank Dorran and I though it was really bad. Sorry Its on Kazaar if you wanna look.
Hello everyone... I just stumbled onto this site last nite and started my MAP experience with this thread and it's such a treat to take in ideas by people who know something about what they're talking about and have personal experience to back it up. I've been taking aikido for 7 months now and I absolutely love it. I'm am just now realising what it's about and what it requires to master, and how the theories can be applied to everyday life and situations. I'm just now at the point where seiza doesn't hurt anymore, and I'm learning to move my hip and waist instead of my arms and legs. It's amazing how clear a concept becomes after you've been practicing it for so long. This has taught me that just because our eyes see something doesn't mean we actually SEE what's goin on. And that my friends can be applied to everything. To me Aikido is a philosophy which deals in combat as well as mental, spiritual and personal growth - and I love it all baby!! Cheers! --Hairynipples
Hi everybody, After reading this thread I am surprised that nobody mentioned Hapkido yet. These two Martial Arts derive from the same root (aikijitsu). The ideas of many techniques are very close in these arts, with Hapkido being more applied and brutal, and Aikido being more abstract and forgiving. Hapkido has a reputation of being a highly effective MA; therefore Aikido techniques that are built on the same ideas should work as well. The only problem that is present in Aikido is the practicing environment. Aikido does not include punching or kicking in its curriculum, and uke that never practiced striking before cannot provide real attack. In order to perform a technique in the real fight it should be at the level of a motor skill, which means repeating it thousands times in free sparing with a skilled opponent. Hapkido includes striking training and sparring with opponents who know how to attack, thus providing better environment to condition oneself to apply twisting and throwing techniques in a real fight.
First and foremost, welcome to MAP bearhug! bearhug This varies from dojo to dojo, I put alot of emphasis on striking technique for that very reason. If the dojo is more spiritually oriented that it is self defense wise striking ould probably not be as emphasised. It also depends on the ukes personality, some folks are not naturally aggressive. Yes Hapkido has derive from the same roots as aikido but they are two very different arts. They do share some principals but thats about it. I have tried both and finally settled on aikijutsu but that is personal prefrence. Hapkido has it's merrits but that wasnt the question .
Hi bearhug, (welcome to MAP! ) I think your right to a degree, but the 'rightness' comes down to the other Aikidoka in the club. Most people at our club have either come from a punching and kicking art, or are currently cross-training in at least one other art. So there's a lot of different experience. I can see your point as to the realness of it all, but there's a few points... (I'm 4th kyu so all this is my own thoughts and could be pants. I'll try and get Tintin, our Sensei to maybe write something). First you've got to learn the technique, then you've got to learn footwork to firstly get out of the way then apply the technique. Then roll all that up into one and throw in a full attack from a resisting uke. Very different to a lot of practice on the mat. But full resistance Randori (sorry Tintin, can't remember the name... toshu maybe???) and competitions provide the realness, in Shodokan at least. My own personal thoughts are that Aikido takes probably a year to get to know it even slightly at 2 or 3 times a week (depending on club and Sensei). I'm finding Aikido a very deep art, with a lot of subtlety. I suppose you've got to bear in mind that O'Sensei came from hard martial arts and developed Aikido in response to an attack from someone from that background. Aikido has the Atemi waza that does provide a fairly quick grounding in striking and avoidance if someone wants to learn self defence fairly quickly. However there are harder martial arts that will teach the basics in a shorter space of time, but will focus on damaging an opponent (IMO). Whereas Aikido seems to take longer to learn because the intention is only to immobilise your opponent, not damage them - which is the difference. Tim
The Aiki Arts are Effective! Aikido and its precursor art Aikijujitsu are effective in real street encounters only when the techniques are embodied in one's muscle memory. When these fighting arts are already part of one's reptilian reflexes and thus, free from the bondage of thought & analysis, they can be truly devastating and if brought to their extremes - lethal. However, it takes many years of constant practice to cloak the whole of Aikido (and its more brutal cousin Aikijujitsu) into your reflex system. So, a month's practice does not even begin to scratch the surface of these arts. Let me share to you my experience (At this point, I must emphasize that I did not think nor did I immediately remember the technique that I had executed. It was only days after the incident that I could come up with an analysis): "It was a late afternoon. While walking on the street, a toughie mistook me for a member of a warring fraternity, accosted me and suddenly let loose a roundhouse kick. The guy's lighting movement plus the surprise of the moment gave me barely enough time to deflect his kick but I was still hit hard on the rib cage and it sent me staggering. I hopped back and looked around - wary for his comrades but I saw none. With a yell, the man again threw a (right) front kick followed up with a (right) punch. This time, my reflexes kicked in and I executed a tenkan maneuver, deflected his kick with my right hand, deflected his punch with my left tegatana, and within the same tai-sabaki movement, plowed my left elbow in an atemi deep into his ribcage. Without breaking the fluidity, my left arm formed into a blade and rammed up into his throat (sort of an osae-yo nage technique) while my right hand slipped under his right leg and pulled up. Unbalanced, his legs were swept from under him and gravity did the rest. He fell backwards and clung desperately to my left arm but I instinctively dropped low, causing his head to hit the concrete pavement with a sickening crunch. For a long time, he just lay there breathing in gasps. I looked around me and saw several people staring. I quickly walked away, hailed a passing taxi and fled the scene before someone would call the police. I did not know what happened to the man afterwards. I guess he survived because I was monitoring the news for a week and there was no mention about the incident." So on hindsight, the surprise and speed of the moment did not even permit me to use wrist and jointlock techniques. The adrenaline dump would have wrecked my fine motor coordination to execute them properly. But hey, the throwing techniques were there and reflex and gravity were my allies. Barring firearms, Aikido and Aikijujitsu, if applied to their battle forms for which they were designed could finish fights in mere seconds.
