Aikido in a "Real Fight"

Sorry about your experience

I can verify you there. Some aikido instructors seem to believe that their techniques can work against all attacks. This use of the 'correct punch' or more correctly cr4p jab is a major failing and seems to produce rather less than effective ability. It also puts off people like yourself.

When will a jab be used in the street? Virtually never.
A big old cross or hook is going to be far more common. Jabs are damn near impossible to catch by their very nature. Parrying or slipping is the correct approach followed by a technique which takes advantage of your opponent firing their big gun i much better.

From a historical viewpoint any technique that 'catches' a jab will be done when their opponent is tired and not fresh.

Please don't judge the style by your unfortunate experience. Aikido is very effective when conveyed properly.

 

I think people put down Aikido way too much.

 

There are reasons for it though

The biggest flaw with the style is no pressure testing/sparing and no strikes but this was a focus on the style when it was created so I am told and when I was doing it.

Yet no one does it - odd huh? - thats why it gets a blasting

 

Aikido in a real fight

xplasma:

Aikido has its advantages and disadvantages as do most arts. You can't simply give up on it.

Aikido greatly improves your evasive footwork and teaches you receptiveness and sensitivity. Do you do any sort of dancing? Ballroom dancing? Swing? Ok then you'll realize how effortlessly you can move and flow with your partner. Add a bunch of techniques and more footwork to that and you're halfway there to Aikido.

The reason Aikido is so weird for people is because it reprograms you to fight in a different way. Many many people act the same way when they get threatened- they strike. Thus, striking arts are more readily acceptable because it builds on that reaction. Aikido's style or philosophy of combat is different than what you might find in a hard style, yet it can be easily understood by those of weaker stature like myself.
I've found that aikido works best in static situations like someone grabbing at you and in situations where the other person is lunging at you. It has taught me a thing or two about mass attacks and I've found the footwork in it to be of tremendous help in dealing with multiple attackers.

The movements of Aikido are drawn from movements with sword and staff. You say well who the hell carries a sword and staff on the street? Well no one really but you'll always get opponents who lunge at you with or without a weapon or opponents who grab at you, and that's where aikido can be most effective.

Remember, not everyone can sprawl out when a 300+ lb guy charges at them...especially when there's broken glass and dogcrap on the sidewalk...yuck. Aikido relies on physics to negate and blend with the force of an incoming attack, so you'll safely move away and redirect that 300+ lb guy into a garbage can.

 

You have said what I have many times

The Aikido footwork is the pearl of the style but it is not enough - I took what I needed from it and moved on.

The footwork is the emphasis on the style but there is not enough - what happens when you get a jab cross - this is a common punching technique that requires no skill to do at a basic level.

Its left and then hard right. Aikido does not cover defences against this enough but the footwork is important.

 

jab-cross....that all depends on how quick, responsive and evasive you are. You can do what most people may do which is lean away or block it...or in the Aikido way, you can slip it to the inside and do an atemi strike to the face, circle away to the outside with a tenkan movement or even slip and catch it and enter into something like a shiho-nage throw. That is IF you're good enough.....but most people say "bah" and deem it impractical saying that aikido takes too long to learn or master. True, but you need to stick around and work at it. That's both the beauty and the fault of it. Many people don't have 20 years to attain a black belt. They want results, get in, learn something easy and effective and then get out. I'm only speaking from a self-defense/fighting perspective which is the point of this thread. If you want personal development and exercise then that's different.

 

In truth it does not take 20 years to get one in Aikido

Problem is a Jab cross is so fast I dont think many people could move as fast as you describe,

This is why it gets such a hammering as you never really have control from the start in Aikido - yes u can get it but its the start where people from other arts who have seen other stuff feel you are vunrable!

Hope this make sence.

 

oh yeah true, like I said, IF you're good enough you should be able to sense and anticipate the correct moment of attack and move away. Otherwise you'll get hit. It would also have to depend on the skillset of the attacker. Some people are easier to slip because they're too slow or throw wide crosses. It would have to depend on the situation.
An Aikidoka can really have more control if strikes were included as well...or atemi as its called. For my personal preference I like to supplement aikido with something like thai boxing. Strike and pummel the opponent so that his defenses are reasonably destroyed. When that happens, he may start making mistakes like reaching or lunging or grabbing at me. Once that opportunity comes, I can switch into a joint lock or a throw and maybe take it from there.
The hard part is to first gain an attachment to the attacker's body or limbs to pull the aiki technique...in other words, your entry has to work. A good boxer will always keep moving, hitting fast and almost never giving up his/her center. It makes it more difficult for the aikidoka since he has to draw the attack from the boxer first in order to off balance him.

 

Yes, western boxers are probably one of the biggest challenge for people practising Aikido.
Without proper anticipation it is very difficult to apprehend Jab and punch combos.

I believe it is interesting to practise boxing at least to get some punch awareness.
And yes, correct footwork is probably a non negligeable part of the solution to this riddle.

Morihei Ueshiba clearly stated that in order to make Aikido techniques work you had to train for at least 10 year.
I even think he was a bit obtimistic.
My personal opinion is that one`s should not limit himself/herself to one particulary Martial Arts, sometimes practising something different for a while helps you apprehend your daily techniques differently with a new scope.

 

Dealing with a jab/cross combo is actually quite easy. There are three steps:

Step 1: Descalate the fight before it starts.

Step 2: If step 1 fails, then never get close enough to let the bad guy hit you in the first place. If you stand toe to toe with a boxer or street fighter, you are asking for trouble.

Step 3: See step 2

Ok, ok, so I can see you are asking yourself, but what if he gets close enough? You should be of the opinion that it is not an option, because if you think you will get hit and he thinks he will hit you, then odds are you will get hit.

So, lets say, you choose to let him get close enough to try and hit you, then what?

Well, it is time to turn back the clock on aikido and go back to the jiu jutsu and diato ryu roots. There are a number of options available to you:

Hit the bad guys arm as hard as you can when he jabs you. If you have hurt him enough, he is not likely to punch you again. If he is foolish enough to leave his arm out, then it is time to apply kotegaeshi and a pin (or what ever else takes your fancy).

The other thing you can do is "play with him". Tempt him to throw a few punches while you evade and parry and stay just out of his reach. Eventually, he will over commit to a punch and you can use that to throw him.

However, neither of these are my preferred tactic. My personal favourite is, "enter in" and hit him first, before he throws his first punch and then apply a lock or a pin.

You don't have to be merciless about hitting someone, there is no need to stick your finger in his eye socket or elbow him in the throat. A simple kick to the testicles should be enough to give him something to think about before applying a lock.

See, if you know a fight is going to be on and you have no chance of descalating the fight, then it is best if you get in and end it first and end it fast. If you don't, he will and you can guarantee that when he knocks you down, he won't be nice and apply a lock or a pin, he will just put the boot in, repeatedly.

 

Jujitsu yes

Step 3 was what I was looking for and the hitting the jab hand is luck at best - in Taijitsu I trained a lot for this and its still hard as hell to do if the person can jab well and not leave his arm out to be hit and grabbed.

The first strike is the best option but there is still issues to the styles main defence against this sort of thing - also the low leg kick got ya!

 

Now, now ... you didn't mention the low leg kicks as well.

Dealing with Thai Boxers is also really easy, but for them you need to get really mystical.

A real aiki master would use a bar stool as a make shift Jo and hit the thai boxers legs out from under them, and then pin them by sitting on them

But I take your point Sonshu, I don't see many suburban dojos teaching hitting first or the way of the mystical bar stool

 

So often I hear the emphasis is on Atemi

Yet the 2 dojo's I have trained at (only 2 granted) but the people there could not punch or kick for toffee!

I know kicking is not an element of Aikido but doing stuff makes it easier to understand the mechanics and therefor deal with or counter.

 

Aikido, from what I can tell is not an all round art and doesn't try to be. It has a definite way of doing things. Its effectiveness must be largely down to the fighter being able to control the fight, ie keep it in Aikido fighting style?

 

in the case of the jab cross combination the proper aiki technique is to step off the center line to the outside of the jab hand. that means that if the boxer wishes to connect with his cross he'll need to reach across his own center which sets him up for an easy throw. or you could step to the outside, then forward while parrying and use irimi-nage. this a neck twist throw which is very effective in any arena.

to be honest i'm shocked that any of the aikido practitioners here would suggest stepping inside the center and giving your opponent access to your face. the very first thing i was taught was to step off the center so that the opponent must throw off balance punches in order to reach you, rendering is easy to toss him to the ground.

i learned this on my third day in class. i have training in judo, jkd, wt, jj, kali, silat, savate, boxing and fencing. so, the jabs were not wussy punches. this neck throw is a very effective and simple counter to a jab, it can be easily learned and applied.

i will begin studying aikido once more now that another school has opened in my area. even when compared to the other arts i have studied i find aikido to be effective in reality situations. the important factors here are 1) a good teacher, which is not always the same thing as a skilled practitioner, you need someone with clear communication skills and an ability to TEACH. 2) you must realize that any technique you learn is to be applied based on the principal involved , not isolated to a specific dojo-only situation. practice with both fine tuned and sloppy strikes, learn to defend against them all as attackers can come in many shapes and sizes.

 

Good post

Thing is a decent jab is hard to evade with footwork alone as it is so quick. Stepping to the outside is the best option but in practice it is pretty hard to do as the jab then can turn into an elbow swinging back on you.

I know this could turn into a "what if" descussion which I am not a fan of on forums. The trouble I have found with Aikido is that there is a massive influence on the Atemi yet no schools really use what I class as striking (from the ones I have been to).

Also complience is an issue but the footwork is great and this should not be overlooked in any crosstrainers eyes.

The outside is a safer place but if you are a good fighter the inside is only slightly more dangerious but you need to take the initiative.

 

some Aikido schools train very hard, not soft at all

 

Can you explain what you class as hard

or describe a hard Aikido lesson to you. Not to pick fault but to me I found out leaving and feeling like I had not really done much.