Adrenaline Training

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Mike-KSW, Jul 7, 2004.

  1. shaolintiger

    shaolintiger New Member

    hi, vale tudo/sparring is not addressing one very important part of a fight.

    that is the pre-fight ritual/woofing as they call it at rmcat.

    i agree wholeheartedly that heavy sparring is a very vital piece of the puzzle but simulation/roleplay training is very necessary for the student.

    getting familiar with the pre-fight ritual/pattern is vital if a student is going to be able to recognise when to "go" if a situation requires it.

    sparring is not going to familiarize or teach a student this.

    sparring (if done realistically) will teach the student good timing, distancing, familiarisation of what part of their chosen system works for THEM under pressure etc.

    but again, sparring is reciprocal and has a certain tempo, fighting generally is one way traffic, and the person who initiates and keeps up the attack (unless the defender is VERY determined and is experienced in being on the backfoot in this situation) is usually the victor .

    im sure that comment will make all of the "block and counter" people howl with indignation but thats just the way it is.

    in my adrenaline scenarios i do as many things as possible to ensure adrenaline is introduced.

    i will wear dark sunglasses and a hooded sweatshirt to take away the familiarity of my appearance ( it might sound stupid but it DOES work).

    we will start off by working out a basic scenario ie you have just taken a parking space that i have been waiting for .

    i will then start the scenario, sometimes i will just attack the student with no verbals whatsoever, sometimes i will begin by giving a barrage of obscenities aimed at the student, insulting them , challenging them to a fight etc.

    during all of this i will be trying to eat their personal space (which they are monitoring with their own fence) trying to push / slap them.

    i will NOT tell them when to attack, the rule is not to allow your fence to be touched more than twice.

    when they do decide to attack they go for 3 seconds then the roleplay is stopped.

    depending on how they handle the pre-fight "interview" they may not have to go physical.

    it depends on how i feel they are dealing with it.

    sometimes in the scenario training, they have to deal with ambush attacks
    again this is not dealt with in sparring.

    once again sparring can NOT replace scenario / roleplay training.

    if that was the case the rmcat training would be just fighting , its not, a large part of the training is dedicated to pre-fight.

    and remember, as soon as someone approaches you and starts insulting you etc, the fight has effectively began.
  2. JKogas

    JKogas Valued Member

    I understand. I just don't know how you can train that with any realism when you know the whole time that it's all contrived.

    Well, I suppose you could stand apart from each other and start cussing each other out....but we'd probably break down and starting laughing. It just seems so contrived to do that. Maybe it's just me (or us).
    In other words, when someone does that sort of thing, it has no effect on me whatsoever. Maybe it does for others though. If so, they can probably benefit from such training.

    We do some basic variations of this from time to time. Doesn't seem to really warrant a whole lot of training time however. Again, perhaps this is just me. I prefer just to get it on, so to speak.

    That really depends though on the individuals to an extent I think. When we come out at the opening bell, you'd better believe that we know when it's on. Of course I realize that THAT event is different from the pre-fight event because the possibility exists for avoidance of any escalation toward violence in that regard.

    Avoidance is something that we always preach. After a certain point in one's training, it's pretty easy to "just walk away" because you don't feel that you have anything to prove. We just leave before sh*t starts. When it's UNavoidable however, we find ourselves here again at the opening bell, ready to go, if you see my point.

    But as I mentioned, we have a pre-fight structure and teach to maintain critical distance, all important aspects of the sd matrix.


    Experienced fighters develop a certain poise and an understanding of handling pressure. They understand how to "ride the storm out". This comes with a lot of experience training vale tudo/NHB.

    You could have sucker punch drills, but those aren't very realistic unless you don't forewarn your students prior to the session. But that isn't ideal either for some fairly obvious reasons. If you DO forewarn them, then everyone arrives and is paranoid and waiting for any such attacks. Again not very realistic.

    I suppose I'm just having a hard time seeing where alot of this becomes realistic. I'm not KNOCKING it mind you...just trying to examine it from all sides.

    Do you actually go to parking lots? If so, do your partners/students know this is going to happen before hand? If not, do you follow them around to see where they end up going? How do you set training like this up? With my luck, I'd follow someone to a shopping mall where my "mark" would spend all day before coming back out to his/her car.

    Attack them with shots intended to land and with full power? Have you never had a gun pulled on you? A knife? WOW what a scenario. I gotta think that takes a lot of work to set up.

    If they don't recognize you, they'd probably think you were crazy, pull out some pepper spray and hose you down REAL good, lol. Otherwise it's the "opening bell to begin round one" if you know what I mean.

    There again is the opening bell. If a fighter doesn't know to "go" by that point, they're not fighters. But that's just me. I'm a little more aggressive than many perhaps.

    Why not just once?

    You HOPE anyway, lol.

    Wouldn't that be THEIR choice?

    Right. That's a matter of maintaining basic awareness of one's environment, which should be fundamentals preached from the first night on.

    But again, how do you set up the ambush? That concerns me just a tad bit really for reasons I can't fully put my finger on. Maybe it's the intrusion into personal space. Maybe it's the desire to allow my students to live their lives away from the gym. And maybe still it's my belief that my students can have the wherewithall to deal with pressure from the toughening that occurs through alive and athletic training.

    I mean to say, if they can't handle the pressure, they can't handle the pressure and no amount of "scenario training" will fill in the missing pieces.

    But you cannot POSSIBLY cover every scenario can you? I mean, they're really endless aren't they (in variety)? What's next, the scenario of being attacked while wading in a pool with a swimming ring on? If so, should my attackers all be wearing the swimming rings as well?

    I'm just kidding here (slightly), but you see what I mean surely.

    Oh I understand your points. I suppose I just don't see the need to put so much time and commitment into things which truly can only be contrived to begin with. After all, if the skill is there, it's there. Fighters trained to fight in my opinion, are able to fight at a moments notice because it just "blinks on" when you need it. All of the experience, all of the pressure and intensity in training......all comes rushing right back at you instantly. If (and that's the biggie) it's done right. AT least this has been OUR experience.

    I tend to think most people realize this one. That should be a no-brainer, as I think a LOT of self defense is. After all, this isn't rocket science we're talking about here. Sometimes people in the SD community fall into the trap of trying to "build the better mousetrap", if you know what I mean.

    Good training to you!

    Last edited: Jul 11, 2004
  3. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    You watch Movies at the Cinema Right?

    So when you watch a really great movie you find yourself forgetting that it's a movie and getting sucked in to the story and not remembering that somebody actually placed those shots and that they are only actors and some poor schlep sat down and typed draft after draft of the screenplay.

    This scenario requires an imagination and 'suspension of disbelief', whether that is a 'willing suspension of disbelief' or not...

    Any meaningful scenario training should have the same elements needed for great story-telling, in that you are 'Involved' in the proceedings to the point where your disbelief is suspended.

    Now saying that, I've never really seen or experienced any decent scenario training and yes, I'd probably crack up if myself and a training partner started cursing each other, but that's apparently not how you do it.

    At this point JKogas I'd suggest that you head over to SDF, but I just remembered that you were banned, but that site is well worth reading if you want some good information on the subject.
  4. JKogas

    JKogas Valued Member

    I still know it's a movie though. I find it very hard to be sucked into just any movie thats playing as well. Perhaps that's why scenario training just doesn't pull any triggers.

    Again, I realize your point and where you're coming from. But honestly, after having to deal with tough, combat athletes and the constant pressure that they can induce, someone attempting to "rattle my cage" just isn't going to have the same effect as it might someone who just came from his/her hour per week of TKD class. See my point?

    You remember me?? I must have made an impression. I bet they're still talking about me over there (j/k).

    Amazing that a bunch of "street tough combat artists" get so ****y when you rattle THEIR cages a little huh? Tough indeed. Boy do they completely miss the irony or WHAT?!!

    As an afterthought, perhaps I can see where THEY might benefit from adrenaline and scenario trainining -- considering how they got so bent out of shape because I called one of them paranoid. Isn't that a hoot? A type-written WORD, caused them to get their panties in a knot. Unbelievable.

    What's even more ironic is that, I was on an "empty-hand" forum and do you know what all of their responses were (and they were nearly identical)? You could basically boil it all down to; "just shoot 'em".

    Here they were telling me to pack guns (and probably no less than 7 knives). The next step would be for me to not leave the house unless I was wearing full plate mail armor. I mean my GOD, how much more paranoid CAN you get?

    Aside from that however lies the fact that they were telling ME to use weaponry on a forum about "what to do when you're not packing" or something like that.

    Un-REAL bunch of men who never grew up emotionally and are still the scared little kids that they always were. Those guys could have benefited from a REAL athletic environment where they could have outgrown some of that paranoia.

    Oh well....there are probably guys like that right here on THIS forum as well, right? Lol

    Last edited: Jul 12, 2004
  5. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    Not just ANY movie, but a really great one.

    Yes, I train with and against Combat Athletes myself and always have done. I can still see the value of other forms of training though. No one thing has all the answers.

    Don't really want to get into that. There are some very experienced people over there who would surprise you greatly with their toughness and their Combat Athleticism, who all train the way you do, it's just that you didn't appear to understand their rationalle and they weren't willing to listen to yours. C'est La Vie.
  6. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher

    Hey John,

    But the well documented problem is that in pressure situations, when you're not expecting a confrontation, things don't always blink on. Read the accounts of various trained professionals, from soldiers to police officers. Ther are numerous cases where they are subjected to an unexpected attack and they temporarily lose the ability to respond. We had a case here in Rochester recently where a cop called a supsicious looking kid over to talk to him. The cop, in a police car, watch as the kid produced a handgun and, at point blank range, pulled the trigger three times at head level. By luck (or an act of God) the gun jammed three times. At this point the kid began to run away. It was only at this point that the cop was able to begin to react to the situation.

    The officer talks about how he saw the entire thing in slow montion. And the entire time his only reaction is "I can't believe this is happening. This can't be happening." He also commented that nothing in his training perpared him for that moment.

    I realize that you would argue that it is impossible to simulate this type of scenario in a class room. It is. But, as I posted earlier, everything in the class room is a simulation. And if we can even begin to address these issues then we're better preparing our students. I can't speak for all reality based self defense programs, but Blauer's material is primarily focused on converting that flinch, that moment that the adrenaline hits your system into action. That's why I like it. Its a supliment to my existing training, not a replacement system. He doesn't claim to teach you techniques that will win in the street. It's not about the Anti-Grapple. It's about understanding what goes into a conflict and what you're body's reaction is.

    There are a lot of "no-brainer" aspects to self defense. But much like common sense and aliveness in training, it's the simple concepts that people trip over the most often. Nothing Matt Thorton has talked about is particulary revolutionary (though I consider him a revolutionary individual). And when you get beyond some of the "intellectual property", nothing Blauer is stating is particularly revolutionary either (though I also consider him to be a revolutionary individual). But what's clear is that the information that they are presenting, for one reason or another, has not been included in most of the training that martial artist have been doing for the last few decades.

    - Matt
  7. JKogas

    JKogas Valued Member

    Of course not but it's also unrealistic to think that one CAN find all the answers or perhaps, to even SEEK for all the answers. At some point you've just got to have the willingness to train harder than everyone else and then, to take your chances "on the street". To get caught up in trying to cover all the bases CAN become a trap in itself.

    Bear in mind that I'm not saying it's right or wrong to do scenario training. I'm just sharing my point of view.

    Fair enough, although I would like to clarify that I DID understand their rationale. I did and DO. But that's all water under the bridge now.

    I've had cops training with me. One particular was involved in three separate incidents within a month and a half period of time. He is a combat athlete and has been one most of his life (having wrestled, etc., through his time in school). This officer never participated in "adrenal stress conditioning", but he was able to perform without much any problem at all, simply because resistance from people is "just another day at the office".

    Truthfully, we can't know that adrenal stress conditioning would have helped the officer in your story. We can't honestly ever know that because each situation is going to be different. I'm betting that having a REAL "bad guy" put a gun to someone's face for real, would unnerve anyone -- regardless of how many hours of scenario training that they've been through.

    I do however, understand the point you're making. But wouldn't there exist a difference between someone putting a gun to your head, compared to someone talking tough and giving you the old interview? I think so because it's happened to me too many times.

    Had one guy follow me into my parking lot a work one dark winter morning around 6:30. He was ****ed because I didn't use my blinker or something (fair enough, although I always try to use common courtesy on the road). It didn't warrant him following me all the way to work however. Needless to say, I was pretty ****ed off myself when I got out of my car. We confronted each other and there were a few choice words exchanged -- but the whole time I was "ready to go" -- adrenaline pumping and everything. Had I done a great deal of scenario training or adrenal stress conditioning? NO.

    But as I've said, perhaps it's just me. I just don't feel that I personally NEED any of that, nor do most of the guys that I know who train the same way. I personally feel that it's an example of mental masturbation.

    I'm not KNOCKING it however because I've not done a great deal of it. Just so you know. Perhaps I'll check into Peyton Quinn's video on the subject to get a better example of his approach. I've considered doing that for some time.

    This might even be a good place to talk about the differences between "self-defense" and "self-preservation"!

    I like Blauer. That "Spear" is something that is a very useful tool out of the boxing structure. We do something very similar to that.

    Again, let it be known that I'm not knocking this type of training.



  8. Matt_Bernius

    Matt_Bernius a student and a teacher


    Never thought you were directly knocking the training. Different strokes for different folks. And I didn't mean to suggest that simulation training would have helped the police office in that situation. Still I like the idea with arming people with the most data and experience possible. In recent years my understanding is that more forces have been employing simulation training. Can it cover everything? No. But again, every little bit helps.

    Also we're all wired differently. I have a friend from college who it's clear was genetically predisposed for fighting and combat. He did everything from bouncing to bounty hunting. And he's someone who could process adrenaline extremely well. In every way he's the antithesis of me. Personally, I have a tough time managing an adrenal reaction. And for me Blauer's stuff has really helped.

    As for you're car story, I think the one thing to note is that by the time you were out of the car you were mental prepared for the conflict. My take, actually Blauer's, is that a lot of people would spend the car ride denying that this was happening. And so by the time they go out of the car they would already be in a victim mind set. Or they simply wouldn't be prepared to take control of the situation.

    For me, a good self defense program is about:
    1. Getting people to recognize and trust thier gut reactions.
    2. Getting people aware that in a confrontation you're going to have an adrenal dump.
    3. Getting people used to operating with that dump.
    4. Giving them a bunch of ideas (not necessarily techniques... though at the end of the day there need to be some technqiues) to get them out of the conflict in one peice.

    I think we can all agree that there are often different paths up to the same peak. Full contact sparring I think addresses aspects 3 & 4 of that list (and 2 as well). For someone who is into the path of sparring, is out there activly learning, and has an open mind they can learn 1 & 2 on their own.

    For those who are not necessarily on that path things like simulation training can be used as well. A lot of us haven't gotten into fights or elevated confrontations. In my life I've only been in one (prior to my exposure to Blauer). I did ok (wasn't hurt, but in retrospect I could have handled it a lot better). My exposure to Blauer's material helped me personally find a lot of the answers I was looking for. I think it's an excellent way to get a timid individual the begin to be able to practice verbal and mental self defense. And it lends itself to progressive training (ending up at potentially full on sparring or counter attacks).

    - Matt
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2004
  9. Avidaniel

    Avidaniel Valued Member

    I was thinking and I came across the fact that the easiest theater in which you could simulate some kind of adrenaline rush would be when participating in a sport you suck but taking the competition quite seriously. Perhaps this adrenaline rush wont be as harsh but once you get accostumed to this smaller amount you then can move on. The good thing is that this scenario is much easier to participate in. To help take the competition seriously be sure to have some kind of audience nearby to add atleast a little pressure.

Share This Page