Adam Mizner?

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by EmptyHandGuy, Apr 20, 2020.

  1. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

  2. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

  3. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    But if these guys’ legitimacy is unquestionable, then they surely are savvy enough to know if it is a fraud from the get-go. I mean, it appears that one of them is a successful MMA competitor, one is an ex pro-football (USA) player, and one is a huge, strongman? Surely these guys can spot a fake? Especially the MMA fellow, in judging a fellow martial artist? It seems easy enough for a bunch of people on the internet to spot, so why couldn’t these guys do it, when they are working hands-on with the perpetrator?

    so I doubt any of us know with any certainty that they were paid. Is Mizner wealthy, that he could entice them in with a big enough payment that they would discard their reputation and integrity, to play along with the perpetuation of a fraud?

    If Mizner is a fraud, then I think the safest assumption, if any are to be made, is that these guys are in on it. So where does the blame game end? Do we get to point and ridicule some people and not others? Should these other fellows not be tarred and feathered and driven out of their respective professions as well?

    just to be clear, I don’t know anything about Mizner and I’m not defending him. I have never watched his videos and barely skimmed those posted in this thread. I would not have even heard of him if it weren’t for discussions in the forums. But I’m just trying to be clear on who we all get to point at and ridicule, since that seems to be what this is about.
  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    It depends on what they actually say in the documentary........

    If they take part, and say wow yes they feel really heavy etc, then that's different then if they say "wow you sure would be a UFC winner if chi wasn't banned"

    A similar case if misrepresentation is detailed here:

    It's very long but worth a read.

    The thing was, he wasn’t actually bad, which in some way makes it worse that he felt the need to commit this fraud. I had my Jiu-Jitsu gi in my kit bag, and I did some Shuai Jiao with him. He had really good base, and really good balance taking. For a man of nearly 70 he was very strong, that kind of tendon strength from a lifetime of training. Nonetheless, he is an old man, and needed constant breaks to sit on a chair between takes. I treated him with the deference I hope someone will treat me with if I can still train in my 60’s, and just went with it and didn’t attempt to throw him. I took great care not to accidentally hit him during the demos, and even took pains not to get dirt on his silk uniform as much as was practicable.
    In the wake of the blindingly unsurprising defeat of the Taijiquan master, Ma decided to release clips of the film along with a presentation claiming to have beaten me in an actual bout. At first I thought it was funny, because the notion was so absurd. I just figured I’d get rinsed by my mates for a day or two and then it would be forgotten again. Quite quickly I started getting emails and messages from Chinese journalists and martial arts fans asking if it was true. I responded to a few, explaining that I’d been acting in a demo, and you should be able to tell just by looking at it. "
  5. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    So Fabricio Werdum, Lyoto Machida and Brian Shaw just all agreed to meet up with this guy and cross hands for a laugh?
    Just paid for travel out of their own pockets?
    Yeah...that'll be a no from me.
    axelb and Dead_pool like this.
  6. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Not to belabor the point, but a lot of people do Morgan Freeman impressions and sell their voiceover services.

    This guy does Freeman recalling all of The Mandalorian in 6 minutes. He's passable but you can tell it's not really Freeman.

    The real Freeman gets paid $100k - $1M per voiceover.

    Hire Morgan Freeman - Speaker Fee - Celebrity Speakers Bureau

    So I'm going to say the voiceover in Mizner's "documentary" is as fake as those fingertip Qi blasts he uses to move his partner 15 seconds in. You could fill an hour video with content, all it takes is one fake maneuver to lose my confidence in the con.

    Fake Qi nonsense pollutes the traditional arts. But it's weird I've never come across this in person. Wasn't part of Shotokan, isn't part of my Tai Chi practice, and yet when my instructor tells me to sink or move Qi, it makes perfect sense physically. No fingertip taps or toe tricks, remember them?

    My personal take is that these types of schools put out this garbage to distract people away from the fact that they probably don't really spar, compete, or generally teach practical martial arts skills. Because nobody wants that, people want to feel like they're Avengers with superpowers.
    Last edited: May 18, 2022
  7. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    I have no idea. Maybe they were curious and wealthy enough to indulge their own curiosity.
    But assuming you are correct and they DID accept a payment, then They also deserve our derision for helping perpetrate an obvious fraud and their careers ought to be ended in disgrace.
    Xue Sheng likes this.
  8. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    All three compete in sports which aren't that well paid so come on be serious.

    And athlete's take jobs they don't believe in all the time to sell products they have never used to the public who want to look like them
    Dead_pool likes this.
  9. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    As much as respect Machida, he's not above taking money from people for his presence either. It's not cheap to hire Machida, either. Cheaper than Freeman probably, but I'm guessing all of these guys are well above Mizner's pay scale, unless he's independently wealthy from selling fake Tai Chi garbage.

    Lyoto Machida

    We also don't know the context of how and why all these people got together on camera. It could have been some sort of martial artist retreat. That sort of thing happens all the time. And I'm sure some people show up like Mizner to take advantage of the fact that they're there, and it's a relatively non hostile environment.
    Flying Crane likes this.
  10. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    Ok, do they remain blameless while Mizner is worthy of derision?
  11. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    So again, my question is, where does the blame end? Are these fellows blameless, while Mizner is reviled?
  12. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    They are paid to do a job, do you deride everyone who gets paid to do a job they don't necessarily believe in or like?

    They probably don't know what is going on or care, the guy who deliberately sets out to fool the public should be the one we have a go at, not the hired hands who don't really know what's going on
  13. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Fine by me. Not sure why this is such a sticking point?
    IIRC there's a systema guy who got the seal of approval from one of the Machados? Let's say that Machado's stock took a nose dive with me from that.
    Seeing people suck up to Steven Seagal drops them in my estimation. I like Jesse Enkamp's stuff, and his brother Oliver, but think it was a massive wrong step for them to indulge Seagal's nonsense recently.
  14. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    The late great Carlson Gracie went on the wing chun band wagon just before doing seminars with wing chun guys

    Generally coaches and fighters don't get paid much certainly not enough to turn down every paid appearance fee because they don't completely agree with or know what's going on.
    David Harrison and Dead_pool like this.
  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Indeed. The whole point of confidence tricks and other cons is that, unless you have knowledge of how the trick is done, they fool people.
    Even seemingly "qualified" people like Werdum, Machida and Shaw.
    Brian Shaw knows how to get strong and lift and move heavy stuff. But I wouldn't expect him to fully understand the skeletal alignnment, balance and structure nuance in the Tai Chi tricks to the point where he could stop them happening or point out how they work.
    David Harrison and Dead_pool like this.
  16. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    And, if Mizner is an actual fraud, these fellows helped him. And I don’t buy for a moment that they were duped. Unless they want to make a statement to the contrary, to clear the air. But those who knowingly aid a fraudster are also fraudsters.
  17. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    Yet everyone here says Mizner is a fraud, they can see it in his videos, it’s like common knowledge. But these guys couldn’t spot it?
  18. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    The thing is though having a good knowledge of how to manipulate body alignment, structure, power of suggestion, tension, expectation, etc to move or manipulate people in a way that is, seemingly, out of proportion to the effort being used IS a thing.
    Those people aren't being conned that "something" is happening. Something is happening. They are being put in a controlled situation where Mizner is able to dictate what is happening and create some strange effects.
    The fraud part is saying that he's doing that via manipulating or cultivating "chi".

    If chi is able to be used to push much larger people 10 foot across the floor with little effort (outside of contrived demos) why isn't the current Yokozuna in sumo a 5'4", 10 stone, 70 year old Chinese tai chi master?
    Rather than a 6'3" 29st Mongolian monster called Terunofuji who uses weights to be strong enough to bodily pick up 25 stone men?
    I'll tell you's because chi can't be used like that.
    cloudz likes this.
  19. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Sports people do celebrity endorsements all the time. And paid appearance/ acting gigs. I don't for a minute believe it when sports people/ actors/ musicians say they drink this soda or that. Sleep on this mattress, wear those shoes. They don't have any credibility to me in the first place, so it isn't like my opinion fell.

    I am sure this was just another endorsement/ acting gig. I seriously doubt any of them follow the controversies or care if people are stupid enough to believe this.

    That is just how endorsements work.

    I have liked watching Machida's fights, but come on. The dude drinks urine! :eek:

    Just because someone is has celebrity status, does not make them more credible when it comes to supporting or disliking a product in the first place. That whole concept has always struck me as dumb. But I don't get star struck. They are just people.

    They are known for giving and taking damage to the body. For martial skill. For athletic prowess. I don't turn to fighters for their intellect. Not saying they are all dumb, but it just isn't a requirement of their job to use their intellect.
    David Harrison, axelb and Grond like this.
  20. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Have they endorsed him, or have they just appeared in a documentary exploring TC.

    In the bits I've watched, nobody says anything which I would take as an endorsement.
    David Harrison and Grond like this.

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