Bram, I have spoken to your brother by PM. He is the elder and has stepped into that position here, and being as you seem to have become unbalanced I will finish this conversation with him. If nothing else will motivate you to appropriate behavior then at least consider the need to respect your family.
Hi Kiai To explain things to you is like watching a Dog chase it tail around and around and around, getting crazier all the time. It doesnt have the intelligence nor the understanding to know better 1) "Long lost opportunity to spar and I suppose you mean to admit that it never happened" That my dear old friend is about me and you. I have wanted to meet up with you for a while now and you been ducking around this forum trolling your bitter hatred. Every time I asked to meet up you been full of excuses. Well now that you lay down the challenge to Mustaq to spar, its only fair for us to meet. I will call you and meet up with you. I will bring a camera and we can film it, after this we can put it up on you tube and we can see the level of skill you talk about. 2) The bull **** questions. You see Kiai you not very good at covering your tracks. Ive have seen copies of some of your private mails (silat world is a very small place) and I have to say I shocked by the level of hate and vemon you can write in private, Your hatred of Pendekar Sanders (who you chicken out of meeting) is really letting you down. You have use this forum to write lies apon lies I have pull you up on a number of these, and you dont apologies but still go on and on. Even when you been warned by the Moderator you still dont listen. Kiai why do you spend every day visit and watching what Pendekar Sanders do. You really getting a little besottle with him, and to be really honest, questions will need to be asked about this unhealthy affection you have with him. 3) what **** are you now trying to stir with MMA guys. Am I afraid of them??? Let me explain something to you. I have an open door policy any person can come in any time to any of my classes. I disagree with some of what they do and some of them disagree with me. I teach a number of them in my classes. I ve have never backed down to any challenger, so be very very careful of any more false statements. I believe at this moment in time that the only one causing so much discord on this forum is Kiai. He has over the past 12 months cause over 90% of all the arguments and is really just acting as a troll. The moderator wrote three weeks ago he was going to end all this and some of kiai post were took off, but he back again with the same hate fill post. Kiai :cry: there no more hiding , no more internet warrior , your bluff is now call :bang: . Look forward to seeing you soon :love: . Best Wishes Liam
It's probably about time to bring a few more facts into play. First, Kiai, you aren't seeing Mushtaq when he's angry or trying to be cutting. You'd know it. He's doing something that is perhaps even less pleasant. He's correcting you in areas where you do not believe he could possibly have expertise. And he's got his facts in line better than you. One of his most endearing features is that he's very open and up front about who he is and what he thinks. Part of that is his blog. You can tell who he is, where he lives and a lot about his past. It's right there, no secrets. In fact, you are spreading all sorts of innuendoes and vague accusations about the guy. If we're going to talk about who got personal first or worst the answer is pretty clear. You aren't winning points by making veiled assertions about his character. You are making yourself a real reputation as a feces agitator. One has to wonder who has been hissing filth into your ears about him and to what end. You seem to have a real attitude about Guru Sanders. Whatever he is or isn't Mushtaq certainly isn't one of "his". They certainly know each other, but Mushtaq has never been one of his students or part of his organization. They don't go out drinking together or stay up late at night plotting ways to screw you and yours over. If you have an issue with Mr. Sanders' pieces of paper take it up with the people who gave them to him. Mushtaq is not one of those people. Mushtaq and Jeff Davidson don't like each other. This stuff happens. But I note that he is happy to link to at least one of Davidson's students and praise his work. "You play with him and I don't like him so I won't play with you" is a game most grow out of around the fourth grade. Your protestations about Gavin seem to be, well, lies. 'nuff said. If the tape of the two of you crossing hands still exists I'm sure it will end up on YouTube sooner or later.
There are a few issues here. 1/ The first issue that I have is that the group of people who identify with Sanders are continuing the attack on these forums - Mushtaq, my brother has not responded since, are you able to curtail your side? This ngeroyok tactic is not honourable. 2/ I am prepared to discuss this to our respective positions on PM only IF this discussion is NOT perpetuated on this forum ... by anybody until such time we reach a conclusion! This means a CEASE-FIRE! If Liam or anyone else from your camp continues with this action on the forum, I will not be disposed to continue to reach my understanding of the situation. That is my position until I finalise my research. Salam Krisno
OK Krisno, Up to this point I have tried to address this problem reasonably, and I have spoken to you politely and with as much even handedness as I can by PM (which I note you have not bothered to respond to). So let me put this to you with the last remaining shreds of my sabur. There is no sides, there is no "group" that identifies with Sanders. I don't know Liam, have never spoken to him, have never exchanged email with him or a PM. We have not been introduced. I have no control over what he does and I don't want any. You brother made that particular situation with no help from me and he and you can deal with it. You are not seeing sides, you are seeing people who are fed up with your brother's trolling. If you want to resolve this as far as I am concerned, then you know how to PM me, but don't come on here and deliver ultimatums. At this point there are a good number of people who have a beef with the way your brother acts here, more by the day it seems. He has managed that all on his own. So if you want to talk with me then do so, and if you do so politely I will respond in kind. If we can act as adults in this situation and discuss this rationally then I believe we can resolve this to every one's satisfaction. And I bet that if you keep your brother in line then people will find more interesting things to talk about. But don't come on here using my name and demanding that I fix the mess your brother made. That dog don't hunt.
Hi Krisno With great respect can you show me any where on this forum, where we started a thread or started an attack on Kiai ? You will see on the rows concerning us and kiai have started from him !! Yes we have reacted. Pendekar Sanders has never come on this forum to start an attack on Kiai. Kiai has used this forum time and time again to make crude and crass remarks. My advice at the start to Pendekar Sanders was to say nothing, but after a period of time I couldnt stand by watching and reading what Kiai wrote. Pendekar Sanders is my teacher who I respect and I wasnt going to sit back and let Kiai make up lies. Pendekar Sanders and myself have a number of times asked to meet up with Kiai to discuss these matters, I even offer to pay for his flights, and transport to Dublin so the two of them could meet and discuss this instead of this forum and so far Kiai has refused to do this. I was also very shocked when I saw the vile hate fill private mail that Kiai was sending around. I be very honest with you, we dont want to be on this forum everyday dealing with negative posts, I rather be discussing Silat. If Kiai stop attacking Pendekar Sanders and the art form he practise with 48 hours all this would be dead in the water and it be all over. Pendekar does not force anyone to train with him I choose to train under him, I like the way he teaches, I love the art form, no teacher or human is perfect, but Ive have learnt to grow and develop. If anyone has a problem with Pendekar Sanders, his style, his website, his certificate anything at all, should deal with it privately either by telephone, letter, private email or by turning up to one of his seminars. It shouldnt be done in a cowardly, sneeking way under the cover of a public forum,talk to the man face to face. Trying to bring a person name and character down by using a forum this way Kiai has been doing is disgracefull. So in conclussion Kiai is his only worst enemy, he trolls the forum as a way to bring scorn on Western teachers. He has indeed upset a great number of people. I have tried to hold a olive branch as long as I can .I do not want to be on here every day, readdressing Kiai remarks. But I will not stand back and have my friends, teachers and even myself have lies made up. So talk to your brother and maybe you can explain this to him. Liam
Lets be patient ... I have to care for my family for a while, but I will PM ... Mushtaq, I had just returned from work ... I had to take care of my family... life interfered. I have PM-ed you as an ongoing discussion and I will PM you as well SilatLiam ... please be patient, my initial reply on the forum was a knee jerk reaction. Please let us all desist and be patient ...
I have created a mailing list for this discussion. I have thought about the practicalities of this situation we find ourselves in, and have created a mailing list, the address is hana-caraka@googlegroups.com However it is a private mailing list, and I understand is not open to viewing to casual observers in order to keep the discussion private and hopefully ... focused. I have an interest to have harmony in the western world of silat, and would wish that we can for a while put ALL our egos on hold and have a civil discussion, airing grievances and giving each other a chance to fully express what is problematic from each individual perspective ... as I seek to clarification why this topic has become My father used to say that it takes more than one side to make a quarrel. If we can try to come a place of respect for ALL parties by ironing out our differences ... maybe we might just get there and that will take true silat skills. This will be difficult and will require honest participation from all of us. To reach an understanding of the other is a great thing. We can't hope to achieve that while we lay blame on one another. The first step will always be to keep talking. If we can't do this as insignificant individuals ... what hope has the world of human beings got? I will make Mushtaq a mailing list manager as will I be if he is willing. He will allow membership as he sees fit as I will also. I ask for these proviso, 1./ That neither of us will disallow a membership once an individual joins. 2/ Membership has to remain balanced with equal numbers in both sides of the discussion. 3/ If Mushtaq is agreed, he and I will keep the forum for a test period of 6 months to see if we can be fruitful. At the end of 6 months we pull the pin if it remains unresolved. I respectfully hope that Mr. William Sanders might also participate, also Silat Liam. Mushtaq, I have taken the liberty of making you a manager and you should already be able to post on the forum. To manage the forum though, I think you might require a GMail account. Please go to http://mail.google.com and create an account I truly apologise for any inconvenience. Salam Krisno
I have created a mailing list for this discussion. I have thought about the practicalities of this situation we find ourselves in, and have created a mailing list, the address is hana-caraka@googlegroups.com However it is a private mailing list, and I understand is not open to viewing to casual observers in order to keep the discussion private and hopefully ... focused. I have an interest to have harmony in the western world of silat, and would wish that we can for a while put ALL our egos on hold and have a civil discussion, airing grievances and giving each other a chance to fully express what is problematic from each individual perspective ... as I seek to clarification why this topic has become My father used to say that it takes more than one side to make a quarrel. If we can try to come a place of respect for ALL parties by ironing out our differences ... maybe we might just get there and that will take true silat skills. This will be difficult and will require honest participation from all of us. To reach an understanding of the other is a great thing. We can't hope to achieve that while we lay blame on one another. The first step will always be to keep talking. If we can't do this as insignificant individuals ... what hope has the world of human beings got? I will make Mushtaq a mailing list manager as will I be if he is willing. He will allow membership as he sees fit as I will also. I ask for these proviso, 1./ That neither of us will disallow a membership once an individual joins. 2/ Membership has to remain balanced with equal numbers in both sides of the discussion. 3/ If Mushtaq is agreed, he and I will keep the forum for a test period of 6 months to see if we can be fruitful. At the end of 6 months we pull the pin if it remains unresolved. I respectfully hope that Mr. William Sanders might also participate, also Silat Liam ... I will need your email addresses to add to the list or you can contact Mushtaq Ali. Mushtaq, I have taken the liberty of making you a manager and you should already be able to post on the forum. To manage the forum though, I think you might require a GMail account. Please go to http://mail.google.com and create an account I truly apologise for any inconvenience. Salam Krisno P.S. I hope that all might find this a reasonable solution to the immediate problem of communicating via PM as has been pointed out to me by Mushtaq Ali. Please be advised that those who apply to be mailing list members will be expected to communicate and have a cogent reason to be on the list and a history within this conflict ... this is not a spectator sport. I would hope that contributions look toward a resolution that is equitable to all parties. Can there please be agreement on this?
Some Observations Aside from this being one of the dumbest threads I have seen on a martial arts forum, I'll make the following additional observations in the spirit of whathaveweealllearnedfromthis: - I am glad I'm not connected by lineage to anyone on this thread - I have a reasonable command of Bahasa, and I have read Kiai/Bram's posts on Indonesian forums and found them to be quite well informed and reasonable. In fact he does a great service to the uninformed by speaking authoritatively for his culture - I really believe he posts on this forum in a particular manner to elicit such humorous responses from certain people for sport. - Silatliam and Mushtaq Ali: if your boy is going to publish a public website, and people have an issue or two with the content, then it is perfectly reasonable that he gets called on it in a public forum. See the logic? :bang: - I'm gonna bone up on my Bahasa and stick to the Indonesian forums! Peace Out!
You must not get around much, I have seen much dumber threads than this one. This was actually informative for at least some of us who don't know much about Muslims until people started frothing at the mouth.
Of course given the tone of your previous posts to this forum no one would suspect that you were the least bit partisan in this matter. What happened? Did things get too quiet and you just thought you would see if you might be able to throw some gasoline on the fire? A sentiment that I am sure is shared by everyone here. But then we don't publish a public website, do we? We don't even know each other. And then I have not complained about this being hashed out on this forum have I? The problem with using one's own identity rather than hiding behind an anonymous login is that you do open yourself to trolls and other Internet low life. It is a choice we all have to make. I decided that I prefer to speak in my own voice even if it causes me more trouble than hiding behind a login and sniping at people. I am used to being sniped at after all this time and I can give as good as I get.(And I know where a whole lot of the "bodies are buried") The thing is, even with all the trolling I have to put up with, sometimes something useful can be accomplished. If I can manage to get these two groups to leave each other alone and co-exist peacefully then it is worth it in my book. Promise?
I try and make it a point not to say something about somebody I wouldn't be willing to say to their face. This generally keeps me out of trouble, because I don't have to keep track of -- in the words of Hollywood screenwriters -- which lie I told. Pendekar Sanders and I have some differing views about the history of our arts, and we have had long and heated discussions, the results of which were we agreed to disagree. If I say something here about him, I have likely already said it to him, so I don't feel as if I am backstabbing him. Personally, I like to think I'm right and he's wrong, but since I have been wrong a time or two before in my life, I have to allow that possibility ... Regarding certification and experience, what I know for sure is that Bobbe Edmunds, a man whose opinion I feel comfortable accepting from time to time, has said he was in Cimande village and personally saw evidence that indicated Sanders was there. So the argument isn't whether he was or wasn't, or that he received training there or not, I accept he has -- Bobbe has no reason to lie about it. How something is written on a certificate doesn't really have much to do with what the bearer learned along the way. Nit-picking the phrasing or words does not go to the real question being raised, which is, did Sanders go there and get the thing, for what one assumes is good reason on the part of his teacher? My teacher has no certificates from his teacher, least I've never seen one; nor do I feel the need to have a paper from him telling me what I know. Either I know it or I don't. But many people want the certification in written form, and that is their business. Looks to me as if Sanders did to to Cimande Village and train, and if I disagree with him when it comes to the history of my art, that has nothing to do with his ability to move. This is an old argument, going back many years. I would wish it into the cornfield, for my part. Every time it starts to die down, somebody throws another grenade and it flares back up again. And both sides have responsibility for that -- it takes two to tango ...
Salam all, For Heave sake, I left a forum for a week and the the old discussion are back again. Once again, I humbly ask everyone is involved to this discussion to take a deep breath, step back and hold your opinion. Why people keep talking about certificate or lineage? It is matter? Do you think it will makes you bigger than life? Are we forget that Arts do not make a men. Men make the arts? Nothing extraordinary about silat, silat linage, or silat system. Don't make a big deal of it. I have to say, if you are agree with my opinon that certificate and silat lineage is not a big deal than you have to agree with me to put that certificate away. Why wasting time to talk about it. The true call of silat player is not to do extraordinary things, but to do the ordinary things in an extraordinary way. And to others. please refrain to bring this lineage and the certificate to the forum. Lets talk about silat movements or techniques. For what ever is worth. None of my teachers have a certificate from their teacher. I don't have Silat teaching certificate either. So, if for not having a certificate I would not be legit to teach silat or practice silat, so be it. Who really gave a f......Pardon my french... With all do respect Mas Bram, Mas William Sander. I'm asking both of you and your coleagues to refrain from shouting to each other credibiltiy, etc. on this forum. It is your choices to do it on PM. Thank you very kindly. Tristan
Enough Already!!!!!!!!! Hello everybody. I'm here to announce that the first annual Barenaked Silat Brotherhood Barbecue and Barndance Bonding was a smashing success, with people from all over the world coming over to America the Fabulous to share thier arts and insights in a unique and unprecedented event. An astounding revalation occurred when the artists realized they had a lot more in common than not when they agreed to leave such silly things as origin and political heresay at the door, especially upon comparison of thier particular styles on the mat. ...And then I woke up. So we can't leave Sanders alone, eh? Lineage rubbing you the wrong way? Or is it that he says he doeas "Cimande"? Which, I will baldly point out, SO DO 60 OTHER OF YOU FREAKS!!!!! And I'll bet in a side-by-side comparison you would all look different. There are 10 hamburger joints within a mile of my house, they all claim to make fries and burgers. If you don't like one particular style, DON'T EAT THERE! But don't try to say that YOU are more valid than somebody else because of lineage, documentation, motion, what-have-you. There are PLENTY of other targets, you could start by looking in a mirror. Isn't there a saying, let he with no $hit on his shoes take the first step across the white carpet, or something? This thing is done to death. The postings here will prove nothing, except that arrogance is much more attractive and popular than friendship and brotherhood. Jawara: "Warrior, fighter" (Bahasa Indonesia) Also a former Mande Muda rank, before Pa switched to the Jagabaya structure. Your two remarks above are conflicting, Jawara. Kiai isn't simoutaneously doing a "great service" to his people while "Posting in a particular manner for sport". What he's doing is instigating political infighting while standing on the other side of the river, untouched. There is a much more blunt name for this kind of person, and he would not be tolerated in any other social setting. Kiai enjoys the anonymity of the internet, whilst hiding behind words and accusations he knows he will never have to face down. It's easy to snipe at people for sport. I could have a LOT of "sport" with the Indonesians as well. Dan saya berbicara bahasa Indonesia sekali bagus. Dan bahasa Sunda. Personally, one has to ask: What is the student, but a reflection of the teacher? If any of MY students were guilty of this kind of slander (note that none of them are - I have made it painfully obvious not to post this kind of dreck in my name) I would put a stop to it immediately, and insure the student was aware of my displeasure. So, TO THE TEACHER OF KIAI CARITA: Control your lapdog, his fecal leavings are a direct reflection upon you & your teaching. Unless you condone this abhorrent behaviour. If YOU have issue with William Sanders, pick up the phone or get on a plane. Don't send a lackey to do it for you, that's not the style of a man. Sanders isn't my teacher, by the way. I'm jumping in this uninvited, but it pains me (& much of the Silat community) to see this crap for the billionth time. Sanders came out with some of the earliest Silat vids, and he is at least partially responsible for it's spread in America. I'm not saying it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, but he HAS made the effort to go to the country and get the info firsthand. If you are going to shine a spotlight on his faults, then a little bit of that same light should show his credits as well. Orang Bayangan, PLEASE tell me I'm reading this the wrong way. You cannot be holding the standards of an entire religion to the postings of a couple of followers. This isn't the dark ages. Pak Tristan speaks with the calm of a happily married man, and maybe I should have left this at his post, it's certianly better than mine. But this S**T has gone far enough.
I think you have taken what I said the wrong way. I don't know much about Muslims and I was enjoying reading what Pak Mushtaq and others had to say on the subject. With all the bad press on the Muslim religion these days it was kind of nice to get a look at something different and a bit more humane. Then that guy came on and started yelling and name calling. It just struck me as a little sad that someone offers some nice scriptural material on how their religion thinks that backbiting and strife are bad and gets called names for it.
