A Very interesting response

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by Bruce W Sims, Aug 30, 2012.

  1. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Hi Folks:

    Been out on the INTERNET..... the goal is to find an authentic Hapkido school to train at. Note... I said TRAIN...not teach.....train.

    I used the telephone book for starters. Without exception each of the schools that looked even remotely promising were usually combinations of various materials that they had come to call "hapkido". Schools that flat-out stated that they were this or that art (IE. SHOTOKAN KARATE; TAEKWONDO) might have tried a bit of JUJUTSU or Hapkido but dropped it after a while; usually because it didn't stir much interest.

    The next step was to start going through the various directories for this or that organization. Very surprised at how many schools are carried on the rosters that, when they were called, reported that they once taught a Hapkido art but had stopped quite a while ago. Of course, they are still carried on the rosters of the organization and they may even still mention Hapkido in their marketing.

    What this leaves me wondering is just how much the organizations, their rosters and the representations of various schools are (over)inflated to produce an effect rather than reflect the true nature of the current instructional availability. I think about all of the kids (IE. "newbies") who come on here asking about where to go train and I wonder what they actually find when they follow this or that recommendation. Do these schools move around a lot more than they reveal? Or do people just hop in-and-out of MA instruction when returns don't come fast enough. There have been threads done about how students pop from one venue to another, but now I begin to wonder about the people who start and fold these schools. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  2. Bigmikey

    Bigmikey Internet Pacifist.

    I'm fairly certain my school wont be teaching it much longer. They dont advertise or sell it, unlike TKD which they promote HEAVILY. Other schools in the area have simply mixed TKD with some HKD techniques and tell you that you're learning both simultaneously. I think my school is going that route.

    There are only 3 of us left out of a class of 12 at one point.
     
  3. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Good luck. Hapkido schools are hard enough to find without having to look for "good ones"! :D

    Then, if you find a "good one", you then have to see if they have need of a 4th dan (right?) and can provide appropriate training for you. Or, will they add you on as another instructor to help with the students they already have?



    Every where I visit, I always thumb through the yellow pages and see if there are "Hapkido" schools in the area. Generally there are none.

    From where I live in upstate NY, I have looked as far away as Syracuse (2.5 hours away) and Buffalo (4 hours away) as well as Ottawa, ON (1.5 hours away) and the towns in between. On the Canadian side, there are some good schools in Toronto (4 hours away) and Montreal (2 hours away). Quebec City and Halifax did not have any Hapkido that I could find.

    So, unless I want to look at Albany, NY (4+ hours away) or New York City (7 hours away), I doubt I'll find much throughout New York State (with the exception of Combat Hapkido programs in Fishkill and Albany, but this is not traditional HKD)



    I think there are quite a few factors. Hapkido isn't suited for kids really. Kids are where the money is to keep a commercial school running in many cases. Hapkido can also be pretty painful and hard on the body, which can lead to to a higher dropout rate than Taekwondo (from my experience). So, a school that wants to have enough students to pay the bills will probably have to teach more than one art (maybe TKD) to pay the bills and if the HKD classes are small, they get the short shrift.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2012
  4. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    The other factors that reduce the size of the program I would add in (from a Combat Hapkido perspective) are -

    1. Self Defense arts like Combat Hapkido appeal to a certain group of people, especially LEOs, Corrections, and military. These are often the same people who get crazy schedules and/or deployments, keeping them in a constant state of change as far as when and how long they can train.

    2. Catering only to adults can sometimes hit similar snags, especially if those adults have to take care of kids, work around kids' sports schedules, and/or are just tired from work

    3. Lots of breakfalls just aren't for everyone = dropouts. Same with lots of joint locks.

    4. Usually the 'money-making' side of the school (if they teach a more marketable art) gets the best mat times and attention. This can make the HKD people feel second-rate or if they get bumped a few times, lead them to stop coming.
     
  5. Instructor_Jon

    Instructor_Jon Effectiveness First

    I don't know anybody teaching Hapkido for the money..
     
  6. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member


    There was a school in Ithaca (closed around a decade or so ago) which promised a 1st degree BB in two years in both TKD and HKD. I don't recall the name of the Korean/Korean-American instructor and have no idea how authentic or what lineage his HKD was,but with each pre BB belt level broken down into various levels one had to test for (ie-4 levels,hence 4 te$ts to go from white to yellow) it seemed a bit of a monetary gouge dojang.
     
  7. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Hmmmmm... interesting.

    A few years back, I ran into a guy who opened a school near my workplace. He had a certificate on the way stating he was a 2nd dan in "Taekwondo/Hapkido". When I asked him about his background, he said that it was just all taught together and that was how the certs were issued (he didn't seem to have a deep knowledge of where they differed). He had also cross trained a lot and offered instruction is a wide range of arts (little of this, little of that). I wonder if that was where he came from.

    He didnt last long and his beautiful school was taken over by one of our very good Aikido friends.
     
  8. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Thanks, Guys....these are exactly the sorts of issues that I have been running into. As Thomas said, its hard enough trying find a Hapkido school or even a school that teachs ANY of the Hapkido arts. For instance, I went looking through the HANMUDO website and started calling schools within a 90 mile radius. Nothing...though there were about 6 schools listed on the website. Reason? Most HAD taught HMD at one time or another but could not make a go of it.

    Thomas also raised the issue of teaching. Yes, there have been a couple of offers to teach, but at this stage in my life I want to concentrate on my own development and there just aren't any places that can handle moving a 4th Dan along. Now, thats not to say that I couldn't do "weekenders" to, say Baton Rouge to visit Dr. Kimm but the logistics could be daunting, yes?

    I think the issue I am raising with this thread is that Hapkido seems to have missed the promise of being the "Art of the 21st Century" as indicated in an article in a MA magazine in the late 90-s. But, even worse, what seems to be available is turning out to be only a shadow of what is REALLY available. Makes me wonder where we missed the boat.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  9. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    In some ways, I am in a similar boat. I am the 2nd most senior (Combat) Hapkido guy in my school. With a Taekwondo and a Combat Hapkido program going on, I generally am teaching on one or the other class. I don't get a lot of time for my own training, aside from what I make (at home, with senior students, or before/after class with my instructor, or if I make arrangements with my instructor).

    So, generally, I do the above (work with senior students or my instructor when I can) and I also do quite a bit of "thought" and training outside of class. I am fortunate enough to have the ICHF video library, which allows me to review all of my base material (plus add-ons, of which there is a lot of material), and to review the "new" material I learn for my rank.

    Beyond that, I like going through Alain Burrese's incredible "Lock On" collection, other Hapkido videos and books and hunting down seminars. A seminar with GM Pellegrini (my GM) usually yields quite a bit of new stuff for me to work on. Seminars with others are good too, Hapkido or otherwise.


    Well... in a way, I can agree, but I think there may be another side as well.

    One benefit of studying Taekwondo is that there are so many schools and instructors out there. Even where I live, there are quite a few senior instructors that I can train under. With such a large system, they have produced a lot of senior people.

    In Hapkido, classes have always been small and few people stick around to higher dan levels, making it very difficult for a 4th dan to go to a school and find an instructor who is (1) senior and (2) who has the time to work with this odd 4th dan instead of a class of more junior ranks.

    Almost makes you wonder, if in this day and age, it is so difficult to find places to train above 3rd dan... how did the early pioneers do it, especially while travelling the world spreading the art?
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2012
  10. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    Your search is over...

    http://www.hapkidowon.com

    Your teachers brother, so the same material.

    Also in California, so you can visit as frequently.

    Rank transfer looks likely.
     
  11. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Thanks, Kevin:

    Thats a perfect example of exactly what I am talking about.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2012
  12. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Still - California is pretty far away from Illinois though.

    If you're only looking for occassional training, some seminars, and such, it seems like there are closer groups (I'm thinking KMAB or there must be Jung Ki Kwan instructors closer) that would give you the same options, but closer.
     
  13. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    Why not join the hapkiwon and become a member school and enjoy all the benefits they will offer you?
     
  14. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    I hope you fellas know---Kevin, Thomas, Klaas--- that I sincerely appreciate your suggestionsand that I know that in this situation I am my own worst enemy. What I mean by that is that I have a bond with what---and the way--- my teacher taught. Just taking up with another group or another organization is just not like changing my clothes. For instance, about four hours north of me is a very well-known and well regarded school and the headquarters of a national organization. The head of the school is a figurehead in the Hapkido community. I also know that he takes a narrow view of people training in any manner than how he proposes or in studying anything that he is not teaching.

    In like manner, there is another "household name" in Louisiana who heads his own organization and is internationally famous for his books. Once again, though, I would have to leave my own heritage behind and "convert" to another practice and approach. I know this must sound silly but I have a deep sense of guilt associated with abandoning the traditions that my teacher instilled in me.

    I had thought about approaching Myung's brother concerning applying to the new organization. Once again, I don't know how well-received the late brother's teaching would be. I also must concede that I'm getting a bit old to "red-eye- to California every other month or chase seminars all over the country to garner a few minutes of the teacher's time to discuss some nuance of material.

    Sorry to make this so difficult. I think Thomas expressed a sympathetic tone when he mentioned the difficulty in finding some marginal time with an instructor to talk about things on a Black Belt level. Seems like I have TWO issues in this thread, ne?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     
  15. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Yes, I sure do. Granted, I feel like I learn a lot from teaching students of various levels (I teach curriculum to students ranging from brand new whites belts right up to 3rd dan). Between picking up nuances and tips from seminars and videos and by observing what my students do, I learn a lot.

    I am lucky that I have a great instructor that I can talk to. A lot of it is on me though - usually I don't want to pull him away from other students or keep him too late past the end of class. I run "variations" by him that I see and ask questions about curriculum items and how to teach them. When I teach, I know he watches and he gives specific feedback sometimes. A lot of times, just a few minutes every class opens up some new nuance or idea... but it is different than having a full black belt/senor class. We've had "black belt" nights in the past, although with more Taekwondo black belts than HKD ones, we usually focus on the TKD.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2012
  16. klaasb

    klaasb ....

    Instead of trying to get a few minutes every month, why not try to get a few hours every year? I fly to Korea at least once a year and try to stay up to four weeks at a time. These are not sightseeing trips!

    I thought the hapkiwon was a continuation of your teacher's organisation, no need to change clothes.
     
  17. Convergencezone

    Convergencezone Valued Member

    Bruce,

    You may just want to reconsider your not wanting to teach. I think there comes a point where the best way to gain a deeper understanding of your practice is to teach it, and there's no way around it. You might also try something like teaching the methods you are attached to, and then training in some other art which might improve your hapkido (chinese internal martail arts come to mind).
     
  18. svt2026

    svt2026 New Member

    Maybe because after 4th degree Hapkido has nothing new to offer to you. When you reach a certain level your supposed to make your own techniques, thats why there are so many variation and so many techniques in Hapkido period. The early pioneers did not learn as many techniques as students do today, there wore less of them and simpler so they are practical. They also trained with a lot of people and came up with new training methods and techniques together.

    If you want to continue Hapkido you might as well step in as a beginner and just enjoy practicing the art instead of getting stuck teaching. Or better yet change arts and learn something new that will truly be new not just a variant of a technique. If you learn a different art it can help you add to your Hapkido and will put you in a position of being a student again. You can always make a training group so you don't forget what you have already learned. I dont believe there are any more high level stuff or secret techniques that will take you to a whole new level.
     
  19. iron_ox

    iron_ox Jungki Kwan Midwest

    I have to ask how long have you been doing Hapkido, and what is your rank, you seem to "know" quite a bit...
     
  20. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Funny you should mention Chinese traditions. My late teacher had taken a special interest in TAI CHI CHUAN and KWON BEOP towards the later years of his life. I have been very interested in KWON BEOP and the range of Chinese rather than Japanese influences on KMA. Translating this into behaviors, I found that using TAM TUI 12 for Conditioning and flexibility was far better than going after the Japanese and Okinawan KATA that most (see: TKD) Korean arts do. As part of my projects I had begun to identify various Hapkido techniques which used one or more of the KWON BEOP Methods as a foundation and wanted to include these on my website.

    Since BB for the YEON MU KWAN is used to interface Unarmed methods with Armed Methods as well as go into specialized material such as Preasure Point, Strike Point, Grappling etc etc there is plenty to keep sharp on. The problem is not having someone at the same level of performance to work with.

    I also appreciate the idea of Teaching except that we both know that Teaching is more than just---well-- teaching. There is finding, securing and maintaining a location, establishing a clientele and keeping enrollment up. What I would rather be doing is revert to being one of the "sheep" and not the shepard. That whole headache about keeping some thing going so OTHER people can come and go as they please is not something I have much appetite for. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
     

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