A relationship between street fighting and point fighting?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by hongkongfuey, Jan 31, 2003.

  1. Amber

    Amber Valued Member

    I used to do karate when I was in high school. I was pretty good, and I trained hard.

    One day, I got into a fight at school. I threw two punches and two kicks at the other guy first, each one of them hitting while he cowered down to protect himself. Then, when he realised I had barely hit him each time, he beat the crap out of me.

    To cut the story short I was still a bit of a dumbass for a while. Now, I do MMA, now, I reckon I'm probably a better fighter. Now, I can actually hit hard!

    "Self defense", especially "self defense" classes, in my opinion, are overrated. Now, there are alot of good things one can learn from a self defense class. How to fight is not one of them. I would suggest everyone do some practical "self defense", but at the end of the day, most self defense classes teach you how to fingerthrust the eyes or kick the groing of the attacker, and run away (more or less). For someone untrained, this is pretty good advice. But, if the guy approaching you has an idea how to fight, and, let's say dodges the fingerthrust, you're a little screwed.

    Now, I think every serious fighter needs to learn how to throw a punch. Punches are just plain good strikes. If they miss the eyes/throat/solar plexus, as is likely in a fight against a guy who doesn't want to get hit, they still hurt! Fingerthrusts and so on are all very good, but you need to make sure you're opponent isn't moving first. Read: He's either talking, or his in your mount.
     
  2. Whitecrow

    Whitecrow Valued Member

    ..amber..

    ..firstly, ALL martial arts whether they be boxing, taijiquan, karate, etc. etc. are primarily forms of self-defence (- in fact many of the older, traditional forms are battle-field arts tailored to suit modern needs & sensibilities).. furthermore, if self-defence isn't practical it's not going to work & is therefore worse than useless - this is exactly the point i'm trying to make about the difference between "sports martial-arts" & those that are weighted towards practical methods of protecting oneself in real life situations.. a competent practitioner of any martial art (no matter what their chosen style) should have a number of strategies/tactics in their arsenal that will keep them safe & preferably uninjured (it doesn't matter what the technique is as long as it works!)..

    ..& i agree that punches are a useful tool but would advise caution if striking a hard object such as the human skull - it's very easy to damage your hand & thus weaken your capacity to defend yourself..

    ..personally, i'm not interested in scoring points - i'm interested in tried & tested methods & an advocate of using whatever does the job with the least amount of fuss..
     
  3. devappy

    devappy Valued Member

    I haven't really trained in martial arts that much but for some reason my reflexes are superb.I mean they are like crazy good and I am a naturally good fighter.I tried fighting a friend of mine that took ninjitsu but he kicked my ass.I am saving up the money to take martial arts again and maybe even trying tournaments.I'm sure even though there are rules it can be still be usefull in a street fight.Its the training that you do is what matters.Lets say your doing that stop and go thing well that trains you to hit the person faster than the other guy so in a fight if you can hit that guy first your at least going to stun him then be able to throw in some combos or a power hit.You just cant let tournament fighting be hardwired into your brain.Always be open minded and train be open minded.Bruce lee can explain it better than I can.:hat:
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2008
  4. MrGalt

    MrGalt Valued Member

    No Devappy in fact you are not going to "stun" the guy and then be able to "throw some combos" that you have never practiced or a "power hit." Unlike Mortal Kombat, in reality you cannot freeze or Scorpion-sting someone so that he stands there wobbling while the narrator shouts "Finish Him!"

    What is more likely is that if you practice stop and start point fighting and that carries over into a "real" fight you'll jump up, hit your opponent first (either lightly or in such a way that you injure yourself because you don't know how to hit full contact) and then stop, at which point your not-stunned opponent will hit you repeatedly and painfully and you won't know how to deal with it because you're unaccustomed to being hit.

    Good thing you have crazy good superhuman reflexes and are a natural fighter. Maybe you should stick with that for a martial art.
     
  5. devappy

    devappy Valued Member

    What if you train to hit full contact.I'm sure people that do tournaments thit full contact.I have been in a few fights and I throw combos all the time that I never practiced.When I fight if I feel the guy is gonna hit me first then I try to beat him to it (that hasn't happened all the time though) and I keep hitting.I don't go all out I do a combo than I stop back up and see what the guy is gonna do or try to take it to the ground.If you train only to do tournaments and also train for real fighting than I am sure the tournament fighting will have some benefit to your real fighting,it can't hurt you know.I think it's all about what you train for.Don't train for a specific thing I mean bruce lee was a tournament fighter right and he ended being able to kick some ass in real fighting because of the way he trained.That would be ill as **** if I had some powers when I fought. I would rather choose **** like dead or alive though.**** mortal combat.
     
  6. MrGalt

    MrGalt Valued Member

    It's not the combos themselves I'm saying you've never practiced, I'm saying it's combos in general you don't practice throwing after the first hit if you're a start/stop tournament fighter. All training is specific, not general. Write that down somewhere.

    As for Bruce Lee, there's a lot of debate over whether he was a fighter at all. Leaving that aside, I will go out on a limb here and say that nobody thinks he was a point fighter though. As for tournaments, point or otherwise, can anybody remember a tournament Mr. Lee was said to have entered or won? Enter the Dragon doesn't count.
     
  7. devappy

    devappy Valued Member

    Werd werd I understand I heard that from one of my teachers back in the day. If you search the internet like youtube, I'm sure you can find a few fights with lee in tournaments I saw one of him fighting some dude and he was really good.What I was trying to say about training is don't just train for one thing like punches let's say train for kicks, submission, speed,and train for point fighting but also have a little variety in your training.You can always train for something one day and do something different the next or whatever.
     
  8. ninjakid888

    ninjakid888 New Member

    point system is very good to measure our skill!
    I like this system!
     
  9. Happy Feet Cotton Tail

    Happy Feet Cotton Tail Valued Member

    This is a toughy, personally I don't spar in point, I'm either full contact or semi contact free fighting. I am rather worried about accidentally conditioning myself to pull punches.

    Simple fact is point sparring is SAFER.

    EVRYTHING ELSE that is taught in point sparring could be rehearsed in a higher intensity enviroment.

    The inherint problems I see.

    1. Watch some point sparring matches, 65% (sometimes more) of the scoring strikes are thrown by lead hand and lead foot.

    This over emphasises the use of the lead hand and foot as primory attack weapons.


    2. Pulled strikes.

    This can cuase someone to train to punch for example with both the biceps and triceps, this is incredibly inefficient when regarding punching.

    3. Low risk enviroment, it can soften you up and make you fearful of a full on fight.

    4. Inability to chain attacks.

    5. Poor bone structure.
    Seeing as power goes out the window, competitors just need to put their hand on their opponents body, alot of the time the competitor just ignores keeping good bone structure/posture (one less thing to worry about) in order to aid speed.
     
  10. MrGalt

    MrGalt Valued Member

    Nice breakdown Giacomo.

    1. I like this one best I think. I might even bump that percentage up a bit. I mentioned this earlier in the thread but I have found that even the reason for kicking with the front leg so much in point sparring was mostly invalid. When I started transitioning to full contact what I found was that there is actually only a very slight difference between front and rear leg kicks when you aren't planning on pulling the kick back.

    2. I actually had nightmares in high school that I would get into a "real" fight someday and not be able to keep from pulling my punches. The amazing thing was at the time my definition of "control" was "the ability to pull punches and kicks" instead of "the ability to hit what you're aiming at," which would've been a far more useful attribute. I'm not even sure what the first definition would be good for.

    3. Yes, thank you! Unlike rulesets like boxing or judo randori, I've found this is true from talking to many point sparrers. They have gobs of ring time and still don't know if they can take a real hit. Of course, this might be better than the people who get really good at point sparring and don't think they're going to take a real hit.

    4. There are at least some continuous point sparring rulesets where this isn't a problem. This is another instance where people demonstrate their misunderstanding of specificity of training and say, "Well, in a real fight I'd just not stop (or not pull the punch, or throw a different punch, etc."

    5. You've seen the same Superman punches I have.

    Tell us about your semi-contact ruleset, por favor.
     
  11. WalkingThePath

    WalkingThePath www.gplus.to/jayboyle

    And this right here is why this whole discussion will keep going round in circles. As Superfoot has already pointed out, and as I'm sure has been pointed out numerous times across several threads on this website, POINT SPARRING DOES NOT EQUAL ZERO POWER.

    I trained Muay Thai for a few years, and now am an avid ITF Taekwondo practitioner - I can tell you from personal experience I have been hit harder and with more techniques in some TKD classes than ANY of my muay thai classes....and I guess this is where people start saying the the muay thai class was rubbish and I must have sparred noobs - well, you can tell yourself anything you like. Eventually the full-contact community is going to have to realise that, as Superfoot said, just because under a certain ruleset we don't hit hard, doesn't mean we don't train and condition ourselves in class five times a week to hit hard, and take BEING hit hard.

    And as for the whole 'specificity' of our training, please remember that a tournament may happen once every three months, bi annually, or even (as was my case) once a year....do you honestly believe we spend the rest of our training time bouncing around and tapping each other whilst counting score in our heads??? Specificity is about repetition, not a one-off situation....
    I'm sure there are clubs out there that do that, but please, don't tar us all with the same brush, or we will start thinking that all full-contact practitioners are just thugs with no intelligence who simply beat the other guy to a bloody pulp!

    Open your minds a little to the concept that point-sparring can be as useful a training tool as any other 'safe' sparring environment - and I include the Muay Thai ring and MMA cage in those - any ruleset is STILL a ruleset that constricts...
     
  12. MrGalt

    MrGalt Valued Member

    "or we will start thinking that all full-contact practitioners are just thugs with no intelligence who simply beat the other guy to a bloody pulp!"

    The problem is that stereotype is made up out of whole cloth by a bunch of people who aren't willing to look past the blood to the technique and discipline that drew it. It's nothing more than an appeal to repugnance. What would be your basis for even questioning the intelligence of an MMA fighter, or deciding that he's a "thug" based on his sport?

    The stereotype that point sparring teaches bad habits and is of rather poor utility has a lot more basis and relevance, but I won't retype all of my points from this thread again just for you.
     
  13. WalkingThePath

    WalkingThePath www.gplus.to/jayboyle

    ....and the award for "Completely ignoring everything in my post except the one thing he could twist into an insult" goes to...........:bang:
     
  14. MrGalt

    MrGalt Valued Member

    Yeah, I reckon I did, because that tired old baseless stereotype is the only thing you said that hasn't already been responded to ad nauseum. But since you won't bother to read the thread, I'll repeat one more tired old trope for you:

    Sure, assuming that point sparrers can't hit hard just because they don't isn't entirely valid, but assuming they CAN hit hard because they don't is even less so.
     
  15. TheCount

    TheCount Happiness is a mindset

    I have watched this for a little while now and have decided to contribute.

    Firstly I doubt this debate will ever end because there will always be conflicting opinions but I'll be honest that it is very typically one sided from an outsiders perspective.

    Those who point fight will always claim they can do the same in a fight.
    People who have actually been in street fights will claim otherwise.
    In fairness though the second debate makes more sense because in honesty you have to have actually been a street fight to comment about things reletive to one.

    Points sparring does not always equal not hitting hard. I was hit hard in point sparring, I hit back hard. However it seems to be that the commonality of point sparring doesn't work this way.

    What point sparring teaches you:
    To block everything coming your way without question.

    What it doesn't teach you:
    How to use combos
    How to take a hit and counter properly
    How to generally deal with the shear level of violence you will come up against in a fight.

    What it probably won't teach you:
    How to take hits
    How to hit hard

    I think overall no matter how much people argue about it the fact is there is no guarantee someone who does points fighting will be able to fight in a real fight. I think it is very much a symptom of overconfidence when someone thinks as such.
     
  16. MrGalt

    MrGalt Valued Member

    I like that Count, but I might add one other small thing to it. While you do learn to block everything coming your way, your blocks are often tailored to blocking light pointfighting strikes if you're in a school that doesn't or seldom fights hard. The block that will stop a tappy front-leg roundhouse kick with the foot aimed at your head will often crumple if someone throws a rear leg shin kick at your head instead.

    In any point fighting ruleset people start tailoring their techniques to win points instead of to do damage. I already mentioned some of the modifications that I've seen people do like sliding their gloves off of their hands or hitting themselves while striking for a convincing sound. More subtle is the deemphasis of penetration and solid structure in favor of speed that often comes along with point fighting. After enough time in the sport, for most people point fighting techniques are simply not the same as "real" techniques but pulled. If you are or think you are the exception, then great. If you're an Olympic boxer or a WTF taekwondo fighter and get points for full-contact hits, then great. I'm not talking to you either.

    How about this thing? http://www.centurymartialarts.com/Targets_and_Shields/Targets/Strike_Film.aspx Do any of us think Lennox Lewis or Fedor have one of these in their gyms somewhere? If you're more of a traditionalist, do you think Bruce Lee or Mas Oyama or even Funakoshi would have approved of it? I rather think not, because it's a silly, silly little object. I bet it sells like hotcakes to point fighters though, since I've seen it in the catalog for at least ten years.
     
  17. WalkingThePath

    WalkingThePath www.gplus.to/jayboyle

    The assumption I took issue with was the one that relies on the idea that ALL point sparring is 'light tappy nonsense' - as a majority of posts started to go down that road, I simply pointed out that a reversion to a "tired old baseless stereotype" is a pretty weak argument. Thanks for agreeing! :cool:

    As I said, specificity in training is important, and as we all know continually training for 'light tappy nonsense' will lead to poor techniques on the street, but can we please move away from the idea that all point sparring is said nonsense - surely enough people have contributed to this thread saying that they have taken plenty of hard knocks for this stereotype to be put to bed?


    I agree - but I'd extend it. I would say that Full Contact fighters are just as overconfident, and also have no guarantee they will be able to fight. Sure you can throw hard techniques and do damage, sure you can take hard techniques - but have you ever, truly, been in a position when you actually FEAR the other person and what they might do? Even FC fights have a ruleset, and within that ruleset lies safety - yes, you might get knocked out, and if doing MMA or Judo or other grappling you may even have an arm or leg broken, but after that the other person will stop. On the street, being unconscious means nothing to the aggressor, broken bones mean nothing to the aggressor. There is no ref to step in when you get too bloody. There is no cut man in the corner. Full contact CAN (with correct training) prepare you better than MOST point sparring, but point sparring CAN prepare you as well (with the same correct training).

    Full contact fighting DOES NOT EQUAL street fighting, just as much as point sparring doesn't equal street fighting. No sparring situation in any ruleset will ever prepare you totally for a street fight situation, and whether you are a point sparrer or full contact, you can freeze, make errors, and try dumb stuff that will never work. The only way to excel at street fighting is to street fight. But then I really do think you are a brain dead thug.....:woo:
     
  18. MrGalt

    MrGalt Valued Member

    Yes, full contact fighters do have a guarantee that they will be able to fight because they DO FIGHT. They hit and get hit or throw and get thrown or both and they are able to deal with the fear and the adrenaline dump. You don't think guys go into MMA fights or boxing matches with real fear, especially when they're new? That makes me suspect you didn't do the MT. As a result of that they are MUCH LESS LIKELY to freeze up or try dumb stuff that will never work and MORE LIKELY to do the stuff they practiced. Point fighters, including the tappy ones, are also MORE LIKELY to do the stuff they practiced, and it should scare the crap out of them. I'm not dealing in absolutes here but in likelihoods.

    And yeah, there are exceptions to the light tappy nonsense. There's WTF, there's Olympic boxing, there are continuous fighting divisions...hell, I've seen some Wing Chun point sparring that looked pretty good. There are exceptions all over the place. Maybe a million exceptions, but don't pretend that strip mall krotty with foam-dipped pads and refs stopping the fight if one guy's head moves when he gets hit isn't the majority of the point stuff out there. Everybody isn't the exception. You do TKD in Korea where it's taken a bit more seriously too. Have you tried TKD in the US? Or most krotty tournaments? They're mostly exactly what we're all mocking.

    Again, full contact doesn't equal street fighting, but point fighting is even less like street fighting, and not sparring at all is yet another degree of magnitude less similar to street fighting (Wow, I hate that term, and you make me use it all the time :p). If broken bones and unconsciousness mean nothing to the aggressor, which you argue for because they cause ref stoppages in MMA, I'll see you that and raise you excessive contact, low blows, spitting your mouthpiece out and going out of the ring mean nothing to an aggressor either on the str33ts.
     
  19. d0ugbug

    d0ugbug learning to smile

    I'm not a point fighter I have a few students who are and we enter a few TKD matches now and again the reason I don't like it...

    1. Land a kick or a punch and for some strange reason the attacker seems to turn his or hers back on them

    - Nice lesson to learn hit someone once then turn your back on them GREAT way to teach someone to spar.

    2. There was a phase, which I still see today the old hopping sidekick move; oh don't we all love that one.

    - Not been thought the old side step and reverse punch counter yet then have we, we always scored that way a few years back.

    I find in point fighting you are either a kicker or a puncher there are not many people who are good at both, so if you keep them at pay with the foot great, if you can rush them before the side kick comes up even better.

    Yes point fighting has many things going for it teaches you to be "alert" and "fast" however my personal experience is that fast "slappy" kicks and punches just to get the point do not translate well on the street or in any other kind of full/semi contact sparring. There are far to many point fighters who think they are the hardest things since slice bread, who do not have a clue what to do in any other type of sparring or fighting situation.

    I'm in no way tarnishing you all with the same brush, yes there are exceptions to the rule it’s just my 2p
     
  20. Kenpo_Amnesiac

    Kenpo_Amnesiac Valued Member

    My views on the difference between point fighting and street fighting.

    In Street fighting you may have to go as far as using martial arts to completely incompasitate an attacker (i had to use delayed hand on a biligerent drunk once and whne he went down after my kick to his groin i stopped at that and did'nt even use the sword hand to his neck)whereas in point fighting you use disciplined, controled techniqes and skills against an oppnent. In point fight ing you give more of "love taps" for a lack of a better term. To put it another way in point fighting you will kick and stop just at the point of contact, and try not to actually cause bodilly harm to your opponent. While injuries can do and has happened they are almost always unintentional.
     

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