A relationship between street fighting and point fighting?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by hongkongfuey, Jan 31, 2003.

  1. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Can't help but feel you're lecturing in some way.

    Once again, the article was focussed on the positive aspects to be drawn from points matches.

    As to reality, I've got far too many real life experiences to draw on.

    Yes, there are people with Trophy's and Black Belts who can't fight. We all know that. I was only trying to extract the good.
     
  2. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Can't help but feel your going round in a big circle Andy, and I just noticed I never said at the time of reading,

    'Good article, Andy. :D'

    I agree with most of your points and see where you coming from and am willing to be convinced of the few I do not.



    Bit of a thug then ;) j/k
     
  3. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Hmm, just read back through the article again myself, and it's a bit clumsy.

    Jumps about a bit too much and doesn't really clear up many points.

    I know what I meant to say in my head, but it doesn't really come across as I intended.

    What do you mean by 'going round in a circle' Freeform?
     
  4. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Big Circle, not the article Andy but having to explain it purpose, again, and again, and again.....

    Must feel a bit monotonus!

    Col
     
  5. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Nice article... food for thought

    I liked the article and my favorite part is the last bit about getting hit proper.

    I see the benefits of sparring and know tat I need more and more work (lifelong) on it. We hope in our school to do sparring under different situations and rules to try to be as ready as possible for a "real" encounter. It is fascinating to see students take a good hit for the first time. Some drop and are finished. Some get mad and lose control. The good ones usually step back, condcentrate and fight seriously. It's this batch that usually come up after cl;ass looking for advice.

    Nice article... I'll re-read it later as well.
     
  6. shotokanwarrior

    shotokanwarrior I am the One

    This is why I think versatility is more important than either skill or strength. 1) If you can do somethig they don't know how to deal with, you can win the fight and 2) People with immense skill or strength can still get themselves in deep do-do. Like that guy Varelans.
     
  7. WVNicholson

    WVNicholson Valued Member

    Where is the article now? The link to the article in an earlier post is dead,
    William
     
  8. headbutt

    headbutt New Member

    Hi all, this is only my second post/reply here. That was an outstanding article! I think a lot of martial artists’ understand point fighting's shortcomings when compared to other types of combative martial sports, but are too quick to point them out without any thought about them being positive in any way.

    Hopefully an article like this will help some to look at this type of competition differently.
     
  9. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    There are many codes of practice within the Martial Arts. Some say spar, others say don't. Some say break bricks, while others say break bones. I wanted to bring the subject of point fighting before you, because at one time, it was important to me.

    Aside from a brief dalliance with Judo when I was a small boy, my first unreserved submergence in the Martial Arts, was in Kung Fu. While I yearned to embrace the traditional aspects of the system, I found myself willing to absorb any idea, no matter how small from my Sifu. We trained forms, self defence techniques, pad & bag work, sparring and tournament fighting. I was never as gifted as others seemed to be, taking longer to grasp basic concepts than others, I often lacked their speed, flexibility and endurance. The one key factor I had was determination. The will to overcome those more natural to the arts than I. I entered many competitions, and left empty handed, going out in the first round every time over a four-year period. The turning point came, when my Sifu, himself a celebrated tournament fighter said, "maybe this isn't for you". I felt discarded, and redoubled my efforts, only to be rewarded with a series of victories and acknowledgement over the next four years.

    One of the important factors in this success was cross training. I trained with some Jeet Kune Do people every weekend. I soon had the fancy stuff knocked out of me, getting kicked in the balls while trying a spinning heel kick, and getting my nose broken when my guard was too slack. While they were somewhat disparaging of other systems of practice, I found there were some things worth retaining from my Kung Fu. In fact, there were some things these guys didn't know about at all. In their words, I absorbed what was useful. I found that the modified fencing footwork, feints and drawing techniques, were very similar to what we trained for in points. These days, I still remember the sickening feeling of being kicked hard between the legs by someone who knows how to kick. It's a wonder my wife and I are blessed with a child.

    The modern open tournament has become a circus, with multi coloured suits, acrobatic techniques, and bizarre scoring systems, it has become hard to tell reality from fantasy. Some purists will argue that there are no true Martial Arts any more, as there are no true Martial Situations. We basically play with historical movements, while real warfare is more about guns and bombs. Person to person self-defence has little to do with the alleged Military origins of some of the arts. The Modern Arts do have something to offer though, be they Traditional or eclectic.

    A fight in a point's tournament is often won by the first person to score. The person who is most 'switched on' and 'alert' is likely to get into gear first! Is this not true of the spontaneous Street situation?

    In Street situations we are unexpectedly placed in scenarios where we have to make decisions abruptly, and without consideration. Our dojos or kwoons are within closed doors, not on the streets, so we always get a second chance, or a reassuring comment. These are luxuries you can't afford in the concrete jungle.

    The 'freestyle' points circuit, is somewhat confusing to more traditional Martial Artists. From their perspective it is hard to see anything other than a lot of people playing psychological tag. If I dare to describe Karate Kumite as a sport for a moment, the difference in the point scoring is that successful strikes are usually clearer, and easier to see. In contrast, on the freestyle circuit, you have techniques like the blitz, where the attacker flies in with a multi strike combination, in the hope that a referee will see something land.

    The objective of the offensive points fighter, is to get from a safe distance (out of range), to a striking distance, so fast that, the opponent is unable to defend in time.
    A typical attacking combo would be backfist/reverse punch/ridge hand, which is a bit like an exaggerated jab/cross/hook combination. Only a small modification of this technique is required to turn the jab into a spear hand strike to the eyes, the reverse punch to a leopards paw strike to the throat and the ridge hand to an eardrum shattering cupped hand. A pretty effective combination on the street?

    To be a premium point's fighter, you must practice your arsenal of techniques thousands of times. When, and only when you have done this, can you use these skills on the mat. An attack thrown without confidence of success will never succeed. If you dismiss 'Point' fighting out of hand, how do you redress this in your own system if not the same way?

    Many factors come into play during a bout; by no means least of these is psychology! The match often starts before you step to the mat. You watch your weight class warming up and stretching, all the time analysing their movement patterns, their favourite techniques. The first person to score during the bout gains a psychological advantage, as his/her opponent now has to attack to address the deficit. Some fighters play to their strengths, while others draw on their weaknesses, relying on counter strikes. With Peripheral vision the top points fighter is aware, not only of the opponent, but of the referee(s), manipulating circumstances in their favour. Consider for a moment, the opening sequence of a street confrontation. Your actions are governed by your initial assessment of your opponent(s) are they not? If you are struck first, do you not fight back from a weaker situation, yet striking first, you dictate the pace of the events to come. There may be no referee, but peripheral awareness is important should you be dealing with more than one opponent is it not?
    There is one goal in competition, and that is to come first, so the training is done with that in mind, yet the Pavement Pugilist has the very same objective, without the confusion added by training..

    I'm not suggesting for one moment, that you give up your current mode of practice, and head for the nearest tournament to test this theory. I would simply ask that you give points fighters the benefit of the doubt. While they may well be aware of the limitations of their practice, are you so certain of yours? These days World Champions of this or that are as common as Black Belts. Some are good, and some are bad! At top level though, the points fighter is a far sharper hunter than your typical Karateka, Kick boxer or even Street Fighter.

    There is a widely held belief that how you train, is how you perform. This is largely true, but I want to make an important distinction regarding points fighting!

    My own belief is that how you 'think' when you train, is how you perform! You can be superficial, and look to the immediate task in hand, yet perhaps there is more to be learned. As opposed to admiring the result of a technique during practice, try to look at other ways it could be applied.

    To be 'top notch' at anything requires dedication and hard work. Just because someone is successful on the mat, does not mean they are incapable off it. We have to look at people in general a little here, to realise that anyone who is adaptable enough to raise themselves to the top level in a given field, has the ability to excel in others. An example might be the post Olympic bid for Carl Lewis to leave Pro Athletics, and join Pro Football. Yet he's not just a fast pair of legs. The important tool is the brain, and the motivation it creates.

    While many tournament fighters may compete at weekends, and delude themselves that they are real tough guys, you will find that in reality, the top rank fighters enjoy what they do, have an understanding of what reality actually entails, and train for that eventuality as hard as the next person.

    My motto on the mat was 'be first and be last'! Does this translate to the street?

    One last thing! If you are reading this article, and you are a points fighter, you are probably nodding your head, agreeing with everything I've said while buffing your fingernails and basking in the gleam of Silver and Gold in your trophy case. I have commented only on the positive aspects of point fighting, and the benefits I feel I have gained. I have not mentioned the negative points, so go get yourself hit properly, and stop playing tag!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 29, 2008
  10. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    I find it hard to find a relationship between points fighting and martial arts myself.
     
  11. MrGalt

    MrGalt Valued Member

    Point fighting is a sport, and has many of the benefits practicing any competitive sport has. However, its resemblance to fighting while lacking verisimilitude causes it to teach bad habits that will unfortunately carry over to real fights.

    I'd rather fight a good point fighter than a good linebacker.
     
  12. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Why does everyone think point fighters can't fight in full contact or for real on the street? Point fighters possess many skills that the average martial artist (who doesn't spar) and Joe Public doesn't have.
     
  13. MrGalt

    MrGalt Valued Member

    Boy, they sure do. In fact off the top my head I can tell you some of the skills I saw point-fighters exhibit while I was one:

    I knew a whole school of fighters whose best competitors would slip the glove off of their lead hand and hold the wrist strap, then pop opponents with a quick backfist using their new, extra-long arm for a point, but quickly slip the glove back on before a ref saw it.

    The instructor at my first karate school once seriously instructed us in the practice of slapping our chests or abdomens with a free hand to create a loud popping sound that should ensure that we are awarded a point if we hit an opponent on the side facing away from the judges (or just wanted it to sound like we had).

    I saw a lot of point fighters exhibit the old "fall to your knees like you just got hit with a low blow" skill (although to be fair I've seen that one in boxing too). Whining like a little girl with a skinned knee when you get hit too hard appears to be another popular pointfighting technique, especially if there might be penalty points involved.

    The problem is that the techniques involved in point-fighting lack reality and the idea that all you have to do to be a good real fighter is do your point-fighting techniques and subtract control is ludicrous. All the techniques are the problem because they're thrown without intent to hit hard. The body mechanics of a boxing jab designed to actually hurt an opponent and a point-fighting backfist designed to touch and retract quickly are different. A lead-leg roundhouse kick that is designed to make a pretty popping sound and drop can't be turned into a punishing rear-leg roundhouse kick intended to break ribs at a moment's notice. (Protip for point fighters: that nonsense your instructor told you about lead-leg roundhouse kicks being faster than rear-leg is only true if you're intending to pull the techniques. Go fight full-contact just once and you'll understand. I figured it out eventually that way.)
     
  14. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Hehehe, really? Damn, I'm going to have to try that one.

    I know some members of the national team who do this so it is no surprise. But this is irrelevent to the point I was trying to make.

    You think maybe the point fighters were actually hit in the nuts? Complaining about an injury is human nature and is something we do instinctively ever since, as you put it, we were little children with a skinned knee. Such behaviour is not limited to point fighting - it appears in soccer, golf, tennis, heck even the Olympics. It's a common theme in sports, not just point fighting, and point fighting is a sport. Of course there are going to be displays like this. But just because there are displays like this, doesn't mean point fighters can't fight on the street.

    Alfie Lewis, Robbie Hughes, Kim Do, Raymond Daniels, Daz Ellis... these are all successful point fighters who hit damn hard. If you don't believe me look a couple up and ask to spar with them. If point fighters don't hit hard then why have I seen injuries ranging from broken noses and broken necks as a result of solid punches and kicks? And why have a good number of point fighters been KO'd? Answers = the other fighter threw the technique with intent to hit hard.

    Granted the jab and the backfist have different body mechanics. I won't argue that. It's like saying the side kick and hook kick have different body mechanics. Stating the obvious a bit? The backfist is a speed technique and the snap it generates is enough to momentarily stun an opponent (either on the mat or in the street) to follow up with another shot. Personally I'd rather throw a stinging backfist that does more psychological damage and will hurt me less* than a jab which I throw with full effort and may end up breaking my knuckles with. * The hand can be kept semi-loose and thrown more like a back-hand slap, therefore reducing the risk of injury to the bones of the hand.

    I agree with you that a lead-leg roundhouse kick is not designed to break ribs at a moment's notice. But that doesn't mean it can't. I know plenty of fighters who have broken ribs and winded opponents with this technique. Famous example: Bill "Superfoot" Wallace. He was a point fighter who made the transition to full contact. The only part of his training that changed was the amount of conditioning he did. He still threw the lead-leg roundhouse the same (and broke a lot of ribs in the process too!).

    How is basic physics nonsense? Speed is the amount of distance travelled over a certain length of time. The lead-leg is closer to the target and therefore has a shorter distance to travel. Because the distance is shorter, the amount of time it takes to travel to its target is shorter. Conversely, the rear-leg is further away from the target and therefore has a longer distance to travel. Because the distance is longer, the amount of time it takes to travel to its target is longer. Ergo, the lead-leg is faster :)

    It seems like you (and a lot of other people) like to stereotype point fighters as primadonnas playing tip-tap-toe. I'm sure the point fighters who train several hours a day, six days a week will disagree with you. (I'm one of them.)

    I've trained with a lot of point fighters who can strike with the same amount of power as full contact fighters. It is the ruleset they fight under which dictates they don't need to hit with full power. Don't think that just because they don't hit with full power in a tournament (although some do) doesn't mean they can't.

    Don't and can't are two very different things.

    Regards,

    Dan
     
  15. MrGalt

    MrGalt Valued Member

    Haha. My wife, a belly dancer, just read this over my shoulder and the first thing she said was, "It's not faster, it's just closer..."

    I see you missed the part where I mentioned that they were "skilled" at complaining about excessive contact along with groin hits. I suppose they'll complain to the nearest ref when they get hit too hard in the real world too.

    While we're here let me ask you to qualify one of your statements though. You say you know point fighters who can strike just as hard as full-contact fighters. Does that mean you and they also fight full-contact? If so, under what ruleset? I don't want names and locations, but if you tell me something as simple as "hey, we fight on Friday nights under muay thai rules," I'll take you at your word. If you can't honestly say that, I'm going to assume that you're voicing baseless conjecture.

    I'm going to tell you something harsh and you're going to flame me right out of the thread, but if you're really practicing point-fighting several hours a day, six days a week, and I can tell you this because I did the same thing when I was in my mid-teens, you are definitely de-training yourself in terms of becoming a heavy hitter. It's not as simple as just throwing your point-fighting techniques without pulling the hit. That's not the magic trick. I never said that the lead-leg kick can't do something at a moment's notice. I was saying perhaps unclearly that you can't tweak your sport-specific training at a moment's notice to tailor it to a new situation.

    The fact that you think it's just as good to backhand slap someone for "psychological damage" as it is to land a solid jab speaks volumes on your background and experience. I for one would always prefer to actually hurt my opponent rather than hope he didn't plan on getting hit and/or can't take a hit (hint: the kind of jerk who starts a fight with you on the street has probably done it before, and got hit then too).

    As for Bill Wallace, let's not confuse the point-fighting done in his era with the slappity goodness of the 21st century.

    You are learning to fight at a different range, too. Especially if you're doing stop-start point fighting where the practitioners break up after every clean strike and start over, then at most your training is applicable to the first punch thrown in a "real" fight.

    Point-fighting was my sport of choice for a long time. Like you, I thought that all the time I spent training in it would carry over nicely to real situations. Eventually, I started to apply some critical thought to it and changed my mind. That certainly doesn't mean there's any reason for you to though. I'll need somebody to drop my kids off with after school someday after all.

    PS - Don't and CAN resemble each other even less than Don't and Can't.
     
  16. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Right. And because it's closer, it takes less time to travel to the target. Therefore it gets there quicker. Therefore it's faster.

    Relax. I'm not so sheltered as to think there are actually rules on the street. I'm zealous, not stupid. ;)

    Yes we train full contact hits also. We do so under several rulesets: Olympic-style TKD (which is full contact, despite the absence of a guard), international rules low kick (including sweeps) and Thai rules (elbows, knees and clinching galore!). Granted not as often as we train point fighting. However often when we train point fighting it is often moderate to heavy contact anyway (particularly when I train with my Polish friends and my own instructor, who is a former professional Thai boxer).

    Yes it does. I've used a jab in a street fight before and broken my hand. I also got my head kicked in. I've used a backfist in a street fight and never broken my hand. I also "won" that one (although there's never really any winners in street fighting, is there? Only the guy who spends the least time in hospital). Go figure.

    Promise I'll try to keep this as objective as possible. :)

    I will agree with you to an extent on this point. I like point fighting because people don't hit so hard as in full contact. Honestly, I hate getting hit (and I hate it even more when I get hit hard). But every time I train, I train full-power hits. But I also train control so that I can place the shots in point fighting tournaments. Perhaps I'm not getting your point though?

    Fighters make more contact now than when they did in Bill's era. When Bill was a point fighter they didn't have protective gear and so shots had to be pulled one to two feet away from the target. Granted when Bill took up full contact the comparison here fades dramatically...

    Won't argue with you here, if the fighter only trains points. But every point fighter I know including myself, as I said, trains full contact also (as well as clinching and takedown defence). While tournament training does take up the majority of our training time, we do try to make ourselves more rounded martial artists by pressure testing self defence aspects too.

    Training for point fighting tournaments isn't as easy as an after-school club. At least, it's not where people take their training seriously. I'm not trying to flame you (or anyone) when I say this, and I apologise if it comes off that way, but I highly doubt any of the armchair martial artists on this forum could handle the training we go through. As I said I don't intend to offend, but at the end of the day we are dedicated sportsmen (and women) who train with one goal in mind: to win tournaments. We don't kid ourselves thinking, "That hook kick I can place at head level with great control and accuracy is going to knock someone out on the street" (even though, at some point, it probably could). Just because you don't like out sport doesn't mean we automatically become idiots who think we can win any old street fight, but there are aspects of our training that will carry over to street fights. That's what this thread was about: identifying a relationship between street fighting and point fighting and I agree that, to some degree, there is a link. Perhaps I didn't type my sentences clearly enough because my fingers were hot from all the flaming? :)
     
  17. MrGalt

    MrGalt Valued Member

    Your experience sounds quite different from mine at the least. I may have to respond at greater length later. Put short though, I will say that NO point fighter I've ever known also trained full-contact, except maybe for having had a match or two as a lark.

    The meat of my comment was at the end though:

    Don't and Can't aren't the same thing. Don't and Can are even less similar. I know you say duh, but so many martial artists have the opposite idea. They think, "We do Aikido and never fight non-compliant opponents because we're too deadly, but obviously we can." The guy who regularly does what he is going to be expected to do is more likely to have the ability...if I didn't screw that sentence up somewhere. :p The guy who regularly does something else might be able to rise to the occasion but might not.

    The last couple hundred years in the West and even longer in the East have been dominated by this fascination with the unintuitive. I don't share it. I don't think that the guy who does tai chi in the park for 60 years can beat Fedor down just because it's an attractive thought and it's unintuitive. The opposite is far more likely.
     
  18. tigermonkey

    tigermonkey New Member

    i have been around long enough to have seen and trained with the professional division at point fighting tounaments circa 1970-75.this was in the us.bill wallace,parker sheldon,monster man eddy,bong yu,billy blanks,chuck norris, benny the jet urquides.....
    forgive me for not filling up the page with names.
    have all been pont fighters and made the transition to full contact fighting seemlessly and were all very skilled at hitting very hard, could hurt a man very badly,with any of their techniques.granted there were rules,they broke up after a clash.
    i think that we have lost something in our journey that we should find , if we are able to.
    the distintion between sport and street. of course when we train we must learn how to adjust the force of our techniques to avoid injuring our training partners.that is something i learned many years ago.if we do not learn to adjust ,pretty soon there won't
    be anyone around to train with because they are all injured or gave it up because they were always injured.it takes time to develop what i was taught to be CONTROL of the
    penetration and or force used to deliver a technique.when one could deliver the same
    technique and break a pile of cement slabs or simply dimple the skin of the opponent they
    had mastered the art of CONTROL of their techniques.
    perhaps we have eclipsed that plateau.perhaps we have forgotten that it exists.
    i am here to say it is still there , are you good enough to scale it.
     
  19. Mongrel-Molotov

    Mongrel-Molotov New Member

    I've never been a point fighter, my martial arts experience was only ever with full contact. Some of the interesting things I saw; watching a freestyle karate teacher translate his movements into a full contact situation, his concentrated hits were hard but he had to really focus on the small movements like he had to fine tune himself, he was very merciful which wasn't good for fighting situations where you have to learn to be able to switch mercy off completely, then switch it back on when it's decided (by the natural process of the fight) that the fight is over. I believe he was big on points fighting, and you could see that he was used to the fight stopping when the hits got a bit too intimidating and started risking injury, though for the sake of each other we said no face hits - which made everything way more intimidating, just because it's going to be harder to defend yourself if you can't hit the face at all. The fights usually went to the ground, or if it remained standing ended up being a battle to the first one who got to the solar plexus.

    He definitely did pull a few things out of the hat though, especially in one real life situation where he actually kicked the head of a guy who punched his face for what seemed to be an attack at the fact that he was a red head, walking home, and smiling at night time. I don't know if he learned that kind of thing in points fighting or just from us telling him to try not to question his military choices.
     
  20. Whitecrow

    Whitecrow Valued Member

    .."points fighting" has rules, effective self-defence employs all of the techniques that are banned under competition rules - ask yourself why this is so..

    ..i will concede that points fighting or "sports martial arts" can indeed enhance control & accuracy but the pressure & stress of a "real life" situation as opposed to a sporting competition renders most, if not all sporting lessons worse than useless when a protaganist truly wishes you harm.. the only aspect that can be considered useful is the self-control inherent in all true martial arts disciplines..
     

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