A relationship between street fighting and point fighting?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by hongkongfuey, Jan 31, 2003.

  1. hongkongfuey

    hongkongfuey Kung Fu Geek

    Just read your article Andy. Really enjoyed it and I fully agree with what you say.

    Points fighting is a necessary training method to a well rounded martial artist, but is not the full shilling. However it does build up speed, reflexes and timing which you cannot really argue with. That combined with some traditional training will make a devistating street fighter.
  2. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Hi James,

    I'm glad you got something from it, and I know we have shared some experience of points fighting.

    I have no reality delusions as to points, but I know you have experienced that electric 'switch-on' I was talking about.

  3. Cain

    Cain New Member

    Nice article Andy, I still remember your words before you wrote the article :D



  4. dredleviathan

    dredleviathan New Member

    Hi Andy,

    Some interesting thoughts in your article in regard to the attributes that this kind of training develops. However like you state at the end you are only concentrating on the positive elements.

    The problem for us all no matter in which way we currently train is that there is no formula by which we can clearly state how training relates to practice (i.e. a street confrontation).

    We can't say: A+B+C+D=E

    Where A is understanding fighting concepts. B is hours of training. C is your level of conditioning. D is competition experience and E is your successful street outcome. We, none of us, can claim to have the correct forumla. In fact its even almost impossible to claim to cover every element that can make up the final formula for your particular encounter (was in raining, were you on grass or concrete, was the attacker armed, were you drunk, was the attakcer on drugs/insane, etc etc the possibilites are endless).

    You can only imagine the training you woudl have to do to prepare for each of these :D

    Whilst I think you are right that points fighting does train certain essential attributes it does ignore some pretty important ones that will be essential if you are unlucky enough to have to protect yourself against an attacker. The more pratice you put in at the 'live' end of the scale the more likely you are able to be to judge what will and won't be successful.

    Martial training can only narrow the odds. Unfortunately there is a pretty hefty element of X involved. Where X is nothing other than pure damned luck.

    I think your final sentence summed it all up well "so go get yourself hit properly, and stop playing tag!"
  5. dredleviathan

    dredleviathan New Member

    By the way I just wanted to state that I'm not one of these evangelical, born-again "Street" martial artists.

    In fact I tend to wince everytime I hear someone introduce a technique with the old "when you're on the street" line.

    I consider my main background to be traditional northern style Kung-Fu as that's where I spent the most time. But, to be honest with you my Sifu couldn't deal it out in sparring let alone on the street. His form was incredicle and I truly wish I coudl move like he did. In the end though I had to face the fact that the style wasn't for me. That's not to say that I don't miss alot of the training or that some of the guys in it aren't brilliant... to use a real MA'ism - my path just took a different direction.

    My current training is from a JKD concepts angle and includes Thai, Grappling and Kali. Its still not the ultimate art either... but I can feel that I have progressed further in a much shorter space of time. Of course there was some pretty good foundations to build on.
  6. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Hi Dredleviathan,

    Thanks for taking the time to read the article. Just to respond and clarify a little.


    I feel I have personally discarded the Negative aspects, so there was no real need to comment on those. It's all to easy to find Negative comment on practically any subject you care to name.


    Absolutely. Points does exist in my own personal formula, as a small (x) somewhere. Mostly the bit of the equation which deals with observation of the opponent.


    As do all Sporting MA's some Traditional, and some not so Traditional ones.


    The last bit is an option that many Sporting Martial Artists sadly never take.

    The whole idea for the article evolved from a thread here, on the Sporting Martial Arts forum, entitled 'Ring to Street'. You'll find more of my insane rambling there.

    Last edited: Feb 4, 2003
  7. Jim

    Jim New Member

    There is not.
  8. Cain

    Cain New Member

    Oh and I like the last para :D

    oh and dredleviathan this may be the answer to your post :D

  9. dredleviathan

    dredleviathan New Member

    Hi All,

    Just wanted to say that I liked Andy's article alot. It did what a good article should and made me think about his point of view and evaluate my own stance on that particular subject.

    My main point about ignoring the negative aspects was really that in by doing so the article lacked a roundness. Perhaps this stems back to the way I was asked to write at university but even when I was trying to argue for one particular view I always had to consider the opposite or diverging view. A controversial argument is good as it stimulates debate but in my opinion depth is added by considering varying angles in making your point.

    It might have been that I missed this in Andy's (as he put it) "insane rambling" elsewhere. :)

    In fact thinking about it, it is this kind of balanced view that I feel is missing from many MA related publications especially the print magazines.
  10. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Well i've been accused of being too well-rounded 'physically' on this forum by Cain, so I might as well aim to be more well rounded when I attempt to write an article in future.
    I wasn't clever enough to go to College, let alone Uni :(

    Proof reader (you know who you are), you're sacked ;)
  11. hongkongfuey

    hongkongfuey Kung Fu Geek

    I gave up on my maths degree after taking 6 months to prove 1+1 = 2 (at least I got it right!). The most useful thing I learned was being able to find my way home after 10 pints, and how to cook pot noodle.

    I liked the slightly controversial nature of the article as it threw open the ideas for open debate on the forum. I did feel the article primarily considered the positive aspects of points fighting primarily, but did also qualify them by saying 'go get yourself hit properly, and stop playing tag!'.

    I have heard a lot of critisism of points fighting over the years, and it was good to hear someone voice some of the thoughts on it that I have also had since leaving 'the competition circuit'.

    I would say that points fighting is a valid training method that should be complemented with others methods that suit the individual person practising martial arts. What works for me will not necessarily work for you
  12. Cain

    Cain New Member

    Whoops! Take it easy there Andy, I was just jokin' , don't take it too seriously, I actually respect many people here on this forum and I know that 99.99% people in here are much better martial artists than me, and I got a lot less stamina or fitness level unlike most of you guys includin' you, and I respect your opinions by reading your posts in the forum

    It was just a joke!

    Last edited: Feb 5, 2003
  13. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Joking? Damn,
    but the killer 'Stavit' hitmen armed with poison tipped explosive cricket bats are on their way to Bombay as we speak. They have orders to bring back your malnourished corpse, or an authentic Vindaloo Masala Biryani. Get in the kitchen and start cooking quick :D

    Don't sweat it. I lurv you guys :D

    I also thrive on criticism, as it's a great way to improve!

    Thanks all, I'll do better next time!
  14. Cain

    Cain New Member

    LOL! That's ok dude

    Taliking of thriving on criticism, I gotta improve my underweight probs :woo:

  15. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    If you feel good, then you're not underweight Cain.

    I was just teasing you!

    We can't all have a perfect physique like Pavarotti after all.
  16. Cain

    Cain New Member

    We can't????


    Yep I see your point :D

    And no I an pretty pround of the strength of my stomach, my front thrust kick and my backfist......hmm......gives me an idea for another thrad which will come out in about 6 hrs :D

    Great article


  17. dredleviathan

    dredleviathan New Member

    I'm telling you mate I ain't no genius either. I spent the majority of 3 years wondering what people were talking about and perfecting my home brew.

    The main product of a university education = huge debt, malnourishment, loss of millions of brain cells through alcohol poisoning and being a smart ****!

    The were some plus points admittedly and the penecillin has pretty much cleared up the by-products of them now ;)

    I'm surprised that none of you pointed our that I haven't written an article myself - proofs in the pudding innit. With that in mind perhaps I should pull my head in and shut up with my critical theory.

  18. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    That would have been a cheap shot.

    At the end of the day, when you write, you have to expect people to read. While you strive to control the readers reaction with your words, it's impossible to cover all the angles.

    The Mod's here have all contributed articles, not because we consider ourselves to be any kind of authority on anything, but to provoke thought amongst the members. None of us, with the possible exception of Mike Casto are professional writers, but by prostrating our literacy in this manner, we pave the way for other members to write.

    There are books out there written by all sorts of famous people, but where else can you look into the thoughts of the Martial Artist that exists in Suburbia?

    Use it or lose it?

    One thing I did mention in the article was an important lesson that I learned. When I mentioned the 'turning point', I'd had a conversation with my coach.
    I said, "look I'm getting fed up getting beaten all the time".
    He said "There is no such thing as defeat"
    I said "It sure feels like there is"
    He said " There is no such thing as defeat if you learn from it"

    I learned that I wasn't defeated, unless I couldn't work out a reason for it. Learning why made me correct myself in many ways.

    There were other allegories in the article!
  19. Spike

    Spike New Member

    Umm, good article, most of the points I was going to make have been said already so I`ll just be content with doffing my cap a little.
  20. oneil357

    oneil357 New Member

    nice article andy i have a story to support your article, i am a product of the street i was in my fair share of confrontations here in upstate ny finding myself to be very good at it, one day i met a guy from chicago and we started talking he was a blckbelt in 3 different styles as we became friends he showed me all his certificites and more then 3 dozen trophes i was very interested by this, one day we were walking thru the mall and i found myself in a situation that was unavoidable, as the confrontation unfolded i found my martial arts "god" unwilling to participate after suffering a broken nose and more then a few bruises i was compeled to find out why he didnt help me? he proceded to tell me he has never been in a fight .WTF? outside of a tournament i was speachless!!! from that point on i have studied the arts and have also found that my begining as a street fighter has givin me a huge advantage in the arts, i believe it all comes down to PAIN .all to often i run into martial artist who never really get to enjoy the extent of pain that can be inflicted by a adversary who isnt trying to score points. thank you for your time, oneil

    "violence can only be stopped by greater violence" bruce lee

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