A question About high rank in Bujinkan

You'll have to excuse me, I'm a little long in the tooth regarding these matters. I've witnessed such arguments several times over the last ten years online and I am guilty of presuming such was the case here. The dispute was rooted in the decision of the BBD to retain the word Bujinkan in its name when it's no longer part of that organisation. (An argument I have no desire to see played out yet again here.)

As for the 'Bujinkan International' thing, the organisation's name is Bujinkan. The Japanese word for international is kokusai, unless I'm much mistaken and I've never seen Kokusai Bujinkan Dojo as a name anywhere. As for google results, you can't really hold Soke responsible for what his students do online, regardless of how well-intentioned they are. He doesn't speak English fluently and is not overly fond of the Internet, so I doubt he's aware of what someone buried in the meta tags of a website that was done for him.

 

Originally Posted by Greg Chapman
Quote"So what happens when someone comes to the same level as Brian or better, why after all this time has there been no one, it only took Brian about 15 years to get his 8th, there are people around in the BBD who have been there longer than that now so why are they not at that level? restriction maybe?"Unquote

Wrong!, it took 8 years

 

lol, I guess not! Thanks for the reply and the correction. :Angel:

 

The Bujinkan International wasn`t used by the Japanese but by Westerners in the early 80s because Sensei had said in 1987 that we were all international now!.

 

Pin-pon!

Precisely!!!! Pin-pon!!! Give that man a prize!!!

I've stated before, I have no problem with Xenmaster's question. I have a problem with that question BEING in this thread. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand, just as comparisons of BBD to Bujinkan (which have occupied two full pages of this thread) do not belong here.

I think it would be great if people would merely think one thought before they posted: "If I post this here, does it have the potential to become its own conversation?" If so, then post it as its own conversation. You may actually get some answers.

As I posted before, I've been very clear in my reasons for posting. I've highlighted that "SKH", "conceptualizations of universal energy", and "basic physics" have nothing to do with the question about why there are 15 dans in the Bujinkan. Xenmaster insists that it was relevent but has yet to explain why these themes would contribute TO THE THREAD AT HAND.

I agree! So why not start a thread called: "Interlinkages of Chi, Sui, Ka, Fuu and Kuu"?!?

Now, THAT actually sounds like a cool THREAD to me! But not a thread within a thread! THAT'S MY POINT!!!

These posts become an online record of sorts. Suppose in six months, I want to look for information about BBD ranking. What on earth would bring me to a thread entitled "A question about high rank in Bujinkan"? Wouldn't it be more sensible to find that information in a thread about BBD?!?

Hmm...

I know I may sound like an online idealist, but it couldn't hurt to ask that simple question before posting....

-ben

 

Firstly, can I say that I have no problem with the BBD. Each to their own path and all that. However Xenmasters post (above) got me thinking...
Brian WAS an 8th dan in the Bujinkan but he left. So he is no longer an 8th dan in the Bujinkan. But he is the head of his own organisation so surely he can be whatever rank he likes. He could be his own Soke and grade up to whatever dan grade he likes.

 

As it was Greg who turned the question round (which I have no problem with) and fairly requested the info. His question was answered. I think the thread is fine its developing and whats wrong with that. The MODs haven't shut it down and have contributed, its only you that has a problem Ben!!

 

Have to say I agree with you there to a degree Ka7ana, MAP has a slightly different atmosphere to other forums and that probably accounts for the way threads can drift into different areas and no I'm not on about the Star Wars Pants game now .

However I do feel that when someone like Ben Cole comes on to MAP and makes a point then it's probably wise to listen.

 

Sorry Spook but I feel if there was a problem with the thraed the MODs would lock it. Thats the reason they are there, not for someone else to slap our wrists and tell us off!

Sorry missed the Pants reference, anyway back on topic.........

 

If the point is made in a mature fashion and contributes to the discussion then shouldn't we listen regradless of who it is?

 

It's quite ironic that by continuing with your point you are actually guilty of doing the same thing that you accused Xenmaster of doing!! I wish you had asked that question of yourself before posting!

I understood Xenmaster's question; I am sure others did as well. The question was answered. What is the big deal????

The MODS have a hard job. Thread conversations are dynamic. They ebb and flow touching on a variety of areas. Sometimes they go off on another tangent and the MODS step in. I don't see that there is a problem with Greg asking about a different groups grading structure as clearly that is some people's (Ka7ana, Xen, myself...) point of reference. It's "where we are coming from". It's frustrating that by posting this post I am taking away from the original topic but I still feel it's worth making the point.

 

ben,

i PM'd you following your post yesterday so we could keep this BS off the forum. You choose to keep things going in public...

But as you asked so nicely...

the comments you put in quotes and ask for me to explain are entities you have created. They were my words and their relevance is transparent enough if they are taken within the context of the post they are in and the posts they are in response to.

If you want to make any more points about this matter please PM me.

 

<off topic>
I feel my job as a moderator is to try and continue the flow of the thread. Thread drift is okay, at times it can serve a purpose. My job is not to babysit a bunch of playground Rambo's intent on proving their point is more valid than someone else's. (Oh, I also watch for bad language and edit it out and write polite letters before Sin Binning).<on topic, sort of>

The thread isn't about BBD or Brian or SKH or Chi, Sui, Fu and such. It's about the additional levels of Judan. That question has been answered. Unless you have something constructive to add to the original conversation, I suggest you either start a new thread on it or not ppst it at all. It does not belong here. And Greg turning the question around does not make it right, that should have been a topic/thread of it's own.

Contrary to popular belief, I do not like locking threads, especially ones that have the potential to be informative. But, get to far off topic and turn it into a shoving match, I will lock, delete and bin.

 

Hmm...

Wow! "Now THAT is a contribution," says the gleeful middle schooler....

The purpose and continuity of this thread died long ago. The thread drift, initiated by Xenmaster, has merely become an evasion of responsibility by him and a not-surprising defense by his dojomates.

We now know that when there exists a possibility of another thread popping up within a thread, it would be best to consider posting a new thread to avoid six conversations within one thread.

I personally don't think that a thread needs to be shut down to signal that it has gone off track at the hands of a poster. I'm clearly involved in the derailment of this thread. But I viewed it as necessary medicine that a few people should learn to stomach. I have no problem posting "Huh?" when the poster is babbling or just plain ignorant.

It does little good to have a PM conversation when a larger community is already involved in the conversation. Sorry....

Huh? (see above for translation )

Well, they were clearly not transparent because I've asked you several times to explain how these concepts where pertinent to the thread at hand RATHER THAN deserving their own thread.

Well, isn't that convenient?

I've asked these questions FAR BEFORE you decided to go silent. You still have yet to answer my questions and now insist upon a PM conversation.

That's all anyone needs to know.

I rest my case.

Apologies to the original poster. I hope he got the answer to his question somewhere in between talk of general physics, the BBD ranking structure, and whether BenCole or Xenmaster was responsible for derailing the thread.

-ben

 

Well, there goes the neighbourhood.

lol,

**Bouk hands Ben his rattle back**

Now play nice with the other boys

 

What the heck, as long as we're derailing things, I'll do my bit. . .

None of the shihan in the Bujinkan have gotten "close to the level of Hatsumi": Even the most senior of them in Japan are still very much his students. If you're talking specifically about rank, Hatsumi sensei does not have one; so the idea that he would need to create new ranks because people's own ranks are getting "close to his" makes no sense. Also, as mentioned previously, he was talking about these additional levels of training & understanding as much as 22 years ago.

On another subject within this thread, Cuchulain is correct: There is no such thing as the "Bujinkan International". There is the Bujinkan, which is the organization established and headed by Hatsumi sensei; and there are a number of unaffiliated, separate "spinoff" organizations such as the Genbukan, Jinenkan, and BBD.

I'm not saying any of the latter are "bad" -- but none of them are Bujinkan.

 

ben,

i went silent because there was nothing to say, i could quite easily write a few hundred words explaining, but as you insist, it is off-topic.

the quotes you keep asking me to explain WERE NOT THE FOCUS of the posts.

the first one was just a way i choose to express an idea about the godai, nothing more, consider it an adjective consisting of more than one word.

i mentioned physics only in response to your statement that my refering to energy was mumbo jumbo...again a small point you have dragged out and whined about for two days...

for the last two days the thread has developed and i have been asking about competance in relationship to the perceived level of skill a high grade indicates...unless i am mistaken, that is a question about high grades in the bujinkan...you have chosen not to share your insight into this matter but continue to hound me...even when i repsect the requests of other forum users to let this matter lie.

you continue to post about it after i have PM'ed you and you ignore it, you then ingnore my request for futher comments to be kept off the forum...WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT YOU WERE COMPLAINING ABOUT IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!

and all the way through you bait me with snide comments??????

like i say if you want to understand my philosphy better, then PM me and i'm happy to go into whatever level of detail you are interested in...otherwise why don't you try ignoring me publically as well as privately?

 

I've tried to stay out of this as, like Cuchulain, I was also once a BBD member and at the time enjoyed the training.

I think it's unfair to lump the Genbukan and Jinenkan with the BBD. The major difference being that both of the former teach Ninpo and Taijutsu, however much you may argue that they are not 'current'. The BBD on the other hand does not. I don't think anyone would seriously argue that Tanemura sensei and Manaka shihan do not have a skill in Takamatsuden martial arts that most of us can only hope to one day achieve.

When they left sensei to set up on their own, it was a seriosuly rude thing to do and probably upset sensei considerably. I really doubt he was all that bothered when Brian left.

Thread drfit continues...

 

i havn't read the whole thread so forgive me if i repost something that has been mentioned. but thoughout the years of the bujinkan hatsumi still has 3 ryu's under his name that hasn't been released to any westerner. so higher ranks in the bujinkan could be a result of more trusted/japanese bujinkan members earning the right to learn the rest of the art. also more or less in our art after you achieve 4th dan (the test is extremly difficult) any rank after that could be gave for show or just because. but i could also be completely wrong thats just my thought

 

Due to several requests and the fact that this thread has gone waaaaay off it's original topic, I'm reluctantly locking it. Also, I'm heading out for the weekend and may or may not get a chance to log on. So, you have until Sunday afternoon to read and reread all the posts herein before I start deleting all off topic posts. If you feel that something should stay, you have until Sunday Morning to PM or email and convincing me that an off topic post should stay. Ben brought up a good point about people searching the forum for an answer and having to read thru the rest of the drivel (my words).